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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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 Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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In my limited experience, there are players with lips and techniques that seem to benefit in the range department when using smaller diameters or shallower cups, but there are just as many others that don't.
On the other hand, being on a diameter that's not right for any particular player can make everything harder.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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AJCarter
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Martinharris wrote: | It is very difficult to play much above high C on a 3C. It is possible, but if you learn how to use something smaller like a warburton 4M, you'll have a much better upper range for longer.
There are so many players using bach C cups who don't need to be using something that deep. If you only play classical fair enough, but for most players, an M cup by GR, warburton or curry is more of an all purpose piece.
There will be many people who will strongly disagree with me, but that's my opinion. |
Never had any trouble playing above high C on a 3C. Guess that means the high Gs I can get on my 1X are super difficult. |
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Craig Swartz
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Location: Des Moines, IA area
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting...
I've got to tell ya (and I've been playing on a stock Schilke 19 since around 1972), I believe that if I crashed on Gilligan's Island with my old B3L and only had a Bach 7C (I don't care the letter size), I think I'd eventually be playing about like I am now after a while. Just saying... There seems to be one thing that humans can do when left alone, to their own devices- adapt. I may not want to, but I bet I'd still be playing when Wrong Way showed up... Good luck. |
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Jerry
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Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2163
Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my advice:
Since you're young and still developing as a trumpet player and progressing very nicely, I wouldn't start experimenting with equipment (especially without the guidance of a teacher).
If you were ten years older, I could make recommendations of some mouthpieces for you to try in a systematic way. However, at this point in your development, I won't suggest any equipment change because I'd be afraid of breaking what seems to be working very well.
Because you've essentially been working on your own and being quite successful at it, I'd say keep doing what you're doing.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. |
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royjohn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2272
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi number juan,
Yes, as others have said, when you can save up some money and get even a lesson or two, you might benefit quite a bit. This might be a month from now or five years from now.
As far as mouthpieces go, I don't think you're getting the whole story. Yes, most people play best on one particular diameter of mpc, but some play various diameters for various purposes. Let's say you're like most people and want to look for a particular diameter that seems to work best for you. That's fine as far as it goes, but, in addition to the diameter, you have cup depth, throat size, backbore shape, rim shape, and some other measurements which all make a difference. Even the gap at the receiver makes a great difference and will be different from mpc to mpc. Ideally, you should change one thing at a time. So sticking with the Bachs might make sense because they will all have more or less similar throats and backbores out of the box. Not exactly, but close.
You might find a big difference for yourself just by changing size up or down and it might be apparent right away. Or not. Only way to find out is to try and see. So trying a 1.5 C and a 5C to see if you like either better could be a good first experiment. If you have trouble deciding, maybe you are pretty close to your ideal size. Once you ave the diameter sorted out, maybe you will try various cup depths, throat sizes, backbores, etc. Just change only one thing at a time if you can.
One thing people have left out is that all mpc decisions are tradeoffs. You might find a shallow cup mpc and a narrow throat would give you easier high notes, but overall your tone will not be as dark and warm as a larger cup would give you. Same thing with larger backbores for darker or louder. Yes, possible, but more work to play. And so on...
Be careful because you could find that a 3A or a 5A give you a lot easier high range, but you might sound overbright and thin on them. Or, if you're fixated on playing melodies an octave up, you might use one of these for such and switch to something else more average for your other playing. Thin and bright might not matter an octave up, but could for your typical playing.
A little experimenting is fine, but, given the range you have with just two-three years of practice, you are probably not that far from a workable diameter for yourself, and ought to concentrate on increasing range AND becoming a better all around player.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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Trumpetmannj
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Joined: 17 Oct 2014
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
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Craig Swartz
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7770
Location: Des Moines, IA area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
The original post/question said nothing about playing lead trumpet- a lot of people around here would not consider "high C" as something needed to play lead. Normal chops now often take good players to F''' if one plays modern concerti. |
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Trumpetmannj
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Joined: 17 Oct 2014
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Swartz wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
The original post/question said nothing about playing lead trumpet- a lot of people around here would not consider "high C" as something needed to play lead. Normal chops now often take good players to F''' if one plays modern concerti. |
Actually the original post was asking about notes above a high c. And if it's easier to play those notes on a smaller mouthpiece which can be answered in one word. YES, it's easier to play high on a smaller mouthpiece than a 3c |
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1962 Conn 38a
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Joined: 17 Dec 2015
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
The original post/question said nothing about playing lead trumpet- a lot of people around here would not consider "high C" as something needed to play lead. Normal chops now often take good players to F''' if one plays modern concerti. |
Actually the original post was asking about notes above a high c. And if it's easier to play those notes on a smaller mouthpiece which can be answered in one word. YES, it's easier to play high on a smaller mouthpiece than a 3c |
Unless you are one of the minority like myself who could never play high on those tiny mouthpieces.
I tried for many years.
But give me more cup room and I sail above High C.
Again, I am in the minority, but we exist.
A majority play higher on a smaller mouthpiece.
No player should assume which group he will be in.
He should try both ways to find out for sure.
Rocky
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1962 Conn 38a
and other vintage instruments |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:18 am Post subject: |
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I have yet to find a smaller and shallower mouthpieces that helps me much in the range department. The only caveat being the picc which I previously found somewhat easier on an ID smaller than my Bb. Though recently that's up in the air because I''m experimenting with using my picc ID on my Bb. Time will tell if I'll benefit from downsizing further on the picc.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| ljazztrm wrote: | Cha! See, this is what happens with too many Christmas party gigs with spiked egg nog, too much downtime on the bandstand, and a BlackBerry.
- LH = 'long hold'. Man I've been doing Group Three of SUD with the LH the way you describe. Just fantastic. Talk about covering a lot with one exercise.
- Bah Humbug!
E.S.
 
Ok, OK.... M.C. 2 U 2  |
Great post! But I'm confused again...
SUD?!?! Ah!!! It just came to me... SETTING UP DRILLS!!!!
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
The original post/question said nothing about playing lead trumpet- a lot of people around here would not consider "high C" as something needed to play lead. Normal chops now often take good players to F''' if one plays modern concerti. |
Actually the original post was asking about notes above a high c. And if it's easier to play those notes on a smaller mouthpiece which can be answered in one word. YES, it's easier to play high on a smaller mouthpiece than a 3c |
Not for me, and not for this gentleman, who is playing on a Bach 1-1/4C instead of his usual Mt Vernon 3C in the following video:
https://www.facebook.com/andaluciamusicalinstruments/videos/374619932722038/?pnref=story |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| AJCarter wrote: | | Never had any trouble playing above high C on a 3C. Guess that means the high Gs I can get on my 1X are super difficult. |
| Craig Swartz wrote: | Interesting...
I've got to tell ya (and I've been playing on a stock Schilke 19 since around 1972), I believe that if I crashed on Gilligan's Island with my old B3L and only had a Bach 7C (I don't care the letter size), I think I'd eventually be playing about like I am now after a while. Just saying... There seems to be one thing that humans can do when left alone, to their own devices- adapt. I may not want to, but I bet I'd still be playing when Wrong Way showed up... Good luck. |
Hmmm...
The Schilke 19 is Schilke's version of the Mt Vernon Bach 1.
The Bach 1X is Bach's version of the Mt Vernon Bach 1.
Are the two quoted posts above just a coincidence? I think NOT!!!
Liked the Wrong Way Feldman reference. |
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1962 Conn 38a
Regular Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2015
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
The original post/question said nothing about playing lead trumpet- a lot of people around here would not consider "high C" as something needed to play lead. Normal chops now often take good players to F''' if one plays modern concerti. |
Actually the original post was asking about notes above a high c. And if it's easier to play those notes on a smaller mouthpiece which can be answered in one word. YES, it's easier to play high on a smaller mouthpiece than a 3c |
Not for me, and not for this gentleman, who is playing on a Bach 1-1/4C instead of his usual Mt Vernon 3C in the following video:
https://www.facebook.com/andaluciamusicalinstruments/videos/374619932722038/?pnref=story |
Everybody knows that the secret is his Aloe lip salve.
It makes him slide up to Triple C like a car sliding on wet ice.
Rocky
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1962 Conn 38a
and other vintage instruments |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| 1962 Conn 38a wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
The original post/question said nothing about playing lead trumpet- a lot of people around here would not consider "high C" as something needed to play lead. Normal chops now often take good players to F''' if one plays modern concerti. |
Actually the original post was asking about notes above a high c. And if it's easier to play those notes on a smaller mouthpiece which can be answered in one word. YES, it's easier to play high on a smaller mouthpiece than a 3c |
Unless you are one of the minority like myself who could never play high on those tiny mouthpieces.
I tried for many years.
But give me more cup room and I sail above High C.
Again, I am in the minority, but we exist.
A majority play higher on a smaller mouthpiece.
No player should assume which group he will be in.
He should try both ways to find out for sure.
Rocky |
Actually, my playing experience as a working player for many years has shown me you are in the majority, not the minority Rocky. A majority of (struggling) players may try to play high on very small, shallow mouthpieces. But among the players that actually do play well up high, most of them do it on medium sized mouthpieces (Reeves 42, Purviance 4*K4, Reeves 43, Bach 3C, etc.). |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| 1962 Conn 38a wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
The original post/question said nothing about playing lead trumpet- a lot of people around here would not consider "high C" as something needed to play lead. Normal chops now often take good players to F''' if one plays modern concerti. |
Actually the original post was asking about notes above a high c. And if it's easier to play those notes on a smaller mouthpiece which can be answered in one word. YES, it's easier to play high on a smaller mouthpiece than a 3c |
Not for me, and not for this gentleman, who is playing on a Bach 1-1/4C instead of his usual Mt Vernon 3C in the following video:
https://www.facebook.com/andaluciamusicalinstruments/videos/374619932722038/?pnref=story |
Everybody knows that the secret is his Aloe lip salve.
It makes him slide up to Triple C like a car sliding on wet ice.
Rocky |
I know, I know! I had to stop using that stuff 'cause I kept accidentally glissing up into the Double High Range during Church gigs and stuff! It was so embarrassing!!! |
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ljazztrm
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | SUD?!?! Ah!!! It just came to me... SETTING UP DRILLS!!!!
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By jove, I think he's got it!
Jolly good show old chap!
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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Craig Swartz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7770
Location: Des Moines, IA area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | Trumpetmannj wrote: | | Um....you can Find examples of guys that play lead on a 3c but most lead players I know play much smaller equipment. |
The original post/question said nothing about playing lead trumpet- a lot of people around here would not consider "high C" as something needed to play lead. Normal chops now often take good players to F''' if one plays modern concerti. |
Actually the original post was asking about notes above a high c. And if it's easier to play those notes on a smaller mouthpiece which can be answered in one word. YES, it's easier to play high on a smaller mouthpiece than a 3c |
I absolutely disagree and I stand by what you just quoted from me. I played in a number of working rock bands in the mid 1970s and used a Jet Tone 3A, still have it. I currently do very little lead-type playing but am above "high C" quite a bit and I'm not going back to the JT. Don't need to, it'd actually be more difficult for me to get the kind of sound I want with the smaller piece. Again, I have no idea where you came up with your info- real experience over a couple decades?
On a similar note, I can't even guess as to how many HS kids have shown up for lessons with a Schilke 14a4a (etc). because their band teacher told them it'd be easier to play a couple "high Cs" in their crappy jazz band competitions. (Often times the band teacher even paid for the mouthpiece.) The kids didn't have the notes with the mouthpiece that "came with the horn", nor on the mouthpiece their teacher said would make it easier, better, less painful, what ever. It's like telling someone they can automatically play higher on a piccolo trumpet- I believe most days I can play higher on my Bb, I just couldn't play the Baroque lit on it, but that has to do with where the partials start. One things for certain, a lot of custom and other mouthpiece makers have benefited from advice like yours. No offense to them- they just turn out what the public wants. Of course, they also turn out what a number of players really need, too. And yes, they ca n be the same piece... |
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Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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A smaller piece will not add notes to your range unless you are playing incorrectly.
A smaller piece and more importantly a different back bore will help with endurance and help achieve a characteristic commercial sound.
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | A smaller piece will not add notes to your range unless you are playing incorrectly.
A smaller piece and more importantly a different back bore will help with endurance and help achieve a characteristic commercial sound. |
+1, I use one of Trent Austin's mpces for that very reason, especially the "commercial sound" reference.
Brad
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"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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