Trumpet Father Frustration

tpetplyr · Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:55 pm Post subject:

Im going orchestral, but im also gonna try for a double mjr, in performance and engineering (pbly chemical). I still have to get into the college (Im a Sr. in HS). Im not sure if i could cut it professionally, but mostly I just cant decide which i would rather have as aprofesison and which i would rather have as a hobby. Some universitys have programs for double mjrs of this sort, there are a lot of crossover musicians who either have multipule intresets or want financial security. The sad fact is orcehstras ARE dying and trumpet players are not:) the arts are undervalued (or mis-defined) in todays society and there are more ppl who want to play music than there are who want to PAY for music, and until that is rectified it is going to be very dangerous for ANYBODY to be a music major and be sucessful. Ain't life grand?

Stuart
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robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

Here are some people I can think of (off the top of my head) who did NOT major in music in college:

Mike Sachs (BA in History I believe)
Mark Gould (BS in Sociology, I think)
Joshua Redman (Harvard - Business? Not music at any rate)
Christopher Taylor (Van Cliburn laureate - Mathematics)
Jon Nakamatsu (well, OK I don't know what he studied, but he was a classroom teacher when he won the Van Cliburn)

I think it's clearly possible to have the drive to succeed as a performer and the sensibility to not "bet the house" on a performance degree. I have a BM in Music Ed because I love teaching and I know that I'd be happy to do that if the day ever comes where I decide to stop taking orchestral auditions. As long as your son keeps practicing, taking lessons, and nuturing his love of music, I bet he'll be ok.

Best wishes!
Bob

hazmat · Heavyweight Member Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 669

I would like to post my opinion, being a college freshman and all. When I was looking at colleges, I had decided early on that I would like to double major in music education and trumpet performance. Now I didn't do that as a fall back job, it's actually because I am so passionate about playing and teaching. I made end up dropping the ed major eventually if it is obstructing my performance though. I just think that if he can handle the double major than power to him.

*At Hartt, jazz performance majors are not allowed to double major at all. Either they are jazz performance or not. Non-jazz on the other hand can do what they want as long as they can handle it. Plus with a double major it is possible to get more money for school thus cutting costs in the long run.

MrClean · Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 5:15 pm Post subject:

Regarding Mike Sachs, I didn't realize Julliard offered a BA/history degree. I could be wrong, but I don't think that is accurate...

elbobogrande · Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 5:44 pm Post subject:

Another thing to consider is that a bachelor's degree (or two) doesn't need to be finished in just four years. Choosing a major (or two) doesn't lock anyone into anything. College is a learning experience, and as such, I believe should be open to adjustment if the student feels the need. Even just considering a fifth year or more might allow for the opportunity to experiment with different classes, bringing a more relaxed, lower-pressure, better-informed decision.
My two cents (from firsthand experience as a student in a similar situation),
John
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BullJive · Veteran Member Joined: 26 Nov 2003 Posts: 175

Another 'case-study' to consider is Steve Hendrickson, principal trumpet of the National Symphony Orchestra. Mr. Hendrickson double majored in college (music and philosophy) at a school in Iowa, went to Chicago and worked as a stockbroker (and played a lot and studied with the great Chicago teachers), and now plays in an orchestra where the last chair violin starts at $80,000. Not bad.

I've had the pleasure of some study with Mr. Hendrickson and we chatted quite a bit about the day-to-day challenges of being a musician and making it work with having a life at the same time. I think many of us are drawn into believing some glorified idea of what it takes to become a pro (I was at least). Mr. Hendrickson told me a lot about his journey and it has given me a lot of perspective on my own walk. It might be a good idea to see if your son can get hooked up with a 'pro' and chat when them about some of this stuff. Good luck!

Kent

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

I believe that Mike Sachs got a History Degree (Bachelors) on the West Coast - USC or UCLA? He then went to Juilliard to get a Master's in Trumpet Perfoamance.

romey

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elbobogrande · Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:53 pm Post subject:

Composer Steve Reich got his bachelors (Columbia?) in philosophy before going to Juillard to study composition. I think there are plenty of examples to show that someone who gets a degree outside of music isn't shut out of music careers.
John

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bulos · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:44 am Post subject:

For the life of me I don't know why anyone would encourage a youingster to pursue a career in music..........especially jazz music. Encourage them to pursue and master music to the best of their ability? Certainly? A career choice? Urgh! Sounds like the kid is thinking clearly.
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MrClean · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:38 am Post subject:

That makes sense - I thought he did his undergrad at Julliard, too, but apparently not...

J

TBone · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:40 am Post subject:

Hmm...

I typically try to be as humble as possible, especially when I find myself surrounded by individuals with infinite experience and ability over my own, but I've experienced the receiving end of the discussion this man is describing, and now that I have children of my own, I know that I'll eventually be faced with the delivery, as well. Even though this topic began two months ago, here are my thoughts. I am not a terribly eloquent writer, so forgive my bluntness; I do not want my message to be diluted as I try to sugar coat my opinion.

I am 26 years old. When I was 18, I wanted to play trumpet professionally. I was 3rd chair 1st cornet in a very respectable state brass band. I was first chair trumpet in my high school Symphonic Band. I was lead trumpet in our Jazz Band. I was studying with our local symphony's second chair trumpet as well as our local conservatory's professor of trumpet. I am not iterating through this to brag, but to illustrate that just because you have a laundry list of accomplishments, you may not necessarily be ready (physically and/or mentally) to take the step I wanted to take; the step you appear to be forcing upon your son. I won't go into details, but take my word for it: I was not ready to take on music/trumpet as a major in college. I knew this then and I know now that I was correct. I wasn't abandoning the trumpet when I took up computer science instead; I was putting it on hold. It's possible your son may be in a similar situation. I had three directors, two teachers, and a father all telling me that I was making a mistake when I decided to put the trumpet down for awhile. Eight years later, I'm still glad I did it. Why? Because I can approach it fresh and with the right attitude. I'm not saying your son needs eight years. Maybe he'll take 2 months. Maybe he'll never return to the trumpet again. Who knows. My point is, it needs to be his decision and no one else's. I'm sorry to be so bold, but I find it mildly disturbing that you use things such as "we've spent tons of money on this" and "if you want that Bach, you'll ditch Finance" to get him to do it your way. He is the one who will live the consequences of his decisions now. Whether you believe these decisions to be right or wrong (and whether you're actually correct or not) are entirely irrelevant. What's relevant is that he's doing what he feels is right and in his best interest; afterall, it's HIS education. Going into music is certainly a scary prospect. On top of being one of the most competitive professions there are, it's also extremely challenging to make a living at it, regardless of how good you are. This is a very real fear for a lot of people, and while some individuals can cope with that just fine and accept the risk, others (like myself and your son) need a little more security than that.

I can certainly understand the disappointment you must feel that your son is wasting his "God given talent". I saw that same disappointment and despair in my own father's eyes. Part of what he was telling me at the time was correct and part of it was not. He told me how important it was for me to do something I enjoyed. Ironically, he was an accountant. He detested every minute of every day he spent at work, and he wanted to do everything in his power to spare me of that kind of life. To be honest, I'm in his shoes today. I'm a software developer and I detest every minute of every day that I spend at work. I'd rather be playing my trumpet or showing an aspiring student how to enjoy music through their instrument. Unfortunately, the path I chose was a path I HAD to choose. Bad habits (and my ego) had to die before I could make progress, and I needed to find security from within before I could take on such a monumental task. Your son's reasons for his thinking are likely to be entirely different from my own, but I assure you, sir, that in his mind they are equally as critical and overbearing. As much as I would rather be teaching and playing right now, I would not go back and change a thing. Why? Because it had to happen the way it did. I'm revisiting the trumpet now, and frankly, I sound better now than I ever did before. In one month, I've regained 75% of my range, and 200% of my confidence. I will be going back to school sometime in the future. I wish it was possible for me to have done it before, but this is how it had to be.

Maybe playing trumpet professionally IS what your son was meant to do. If it was, he'll find his way back there. But, he can't succeed as a music major if he's doing it for someone else. He needs to be there because he chose to be there. Any other reason will result in failure at best, and permanently damaged relationships at worst.

I tried to explain that you can't be a performer unless you give it your all - you can either be a trumpet player or a capitalist tool

A capitalist tool? I'm sorry, but this is no way to support your son, regardless of whether or not you agree with his decision. There are far better ways to express your opinion aside from insulting one of his possible career paths. What I'm about to reccount is far more extreme, but when my father would get angry at me, he would call me an ***hole. I would respond "Dad, I'm not". We would go back and forth, literally, arguing over whether or not I, his son, was an ***hole. I can't begin to describe how this damanged my image of him. I'm CERTAINLY not saying that this is even remotely parallel to the conversation you've had with your son, but I can tell you that he doesn't want to go through life thinking that you view him as a "corporate tool".

What can I do to convince this kid to keep on playing?

Maybe your goal shouldn't be to "keep the kid playing", but rather to assist him in deciding if that's the right thing for him. If confidence is his problem, then help him with that. Trying to convince him to play without addressing issues will come back to haunt the both of you.

Again, I know much of what I've said is quite blunt, but I've been in your son's shoes and I know how difficult it was for him to face you and tell you that he's considering other options. He knew it would break your heart, but he felt that he had to tell you. Be glad that you're close enough that he doesn't feel he needs to avoid communicating these concerns with you, and try not to give him reasons to avoid doing so in the future.

Best of luck to you and your son.

trumpetmike · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:48 am Post subject:

Some of the finest players I know didn't do music for their degree.
A few of them don't do music as their profession.

If he really is that good (which I have no reason to doubt) and enjoys it as a hobby, let him continue it as a hobby, then having the luxury of having a career he enjoys (and which earns him a living, something you really can't be certain of as a musician) and a hobby that not only is he proficient at, but he also enjoys.

I would never encourage people into the music business - if they want to do it, with a passion, it may be for them and I will assist in any way I can, but only if they start the discussions.

fortissimo · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:54 pm Post subject:

You can add to your list of great players who got degrees in something other than music none other than......

Adolph Herseth!

Yes, strangely enough, he got his undergrad degree in mathematics at Luther College in Iowa, and had no intention of being a professional musician. He wanted to go into actuary work. Then after serving in some military bands during the war, he got his masters at NEC and won the CSO principal audition while still a student there!

So you never know....obviously he must have had time to practice and keep up his trumpet while in college, even as a math major.

tom turner · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:22 pm Post subject:

Hi Trumpetdad,

I too had a super-promising son, my first, that went off to college to major in music . . . only to change to something more "lucrative."

I too have had the wonderful experience of playing professional gigs with my son. I'll never forget those times.

He chose another route . . . but then he's a different person.

Let your son be himself with your blessings. It sounds like the cat can play . . . and nothing will take that away.

I chose eventually to make music my passion rather than career and I'm glad I have. Jazz and pop gigs are dying out everywhere and the orchestras are dying too. This past year was a terrible one for all forms of live music and the future doesn't look that promising either.

Additionally, most private music teachers have no benefits and endure countless hours of bad sounds . . . and public school music teachers see their programs erode every year . . . along with the conduct of their classes. I play with some really burned out band directors . . . all overworked and underpaid.

When my son Thomas told me of his decision to change majors, I gave him my blessings. Frankly, I thought he was pretty level headed about it, for he can still play too!

In the end, your long-term relationship is what really matters . . . and he needs, and craves, your blessings.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:56 pm Post subject:

I'm 16, so I'm sort of coming at this from the view of 'I have my whole life ahead of me, and I have to decide what to do'.
I'm not any great trumpet player, I don't have years of experience, I can't tell you exactly how it is.

I do know that it's kind of hard to figure out what you want to do, expecially with 4 years of college. Maybe your son is not seeing the value of playing trumpet in quite the same light as you are. I put different values on different things than my parents. Of course you're hoping he isn't thinking with a fuzzy head, and making a decision that he'll regret later. Encourage him, yes. Push him, and try to show him he's dreadfully wrong, I think that would hurt. It sounds like he thinks he can pull this one off. Maybe he can. Some kids are really smart and they can harden their wills enough to make really amazing things happen.

Maybe he is looking more toward long term, raising a family, having a job with normal hours. I don't know him, so I can't tell. It sounds like you have good intentions though. Another thing to consider, what if he had this great career as a performer and he had another accident, and was never able to play the same again? What if he had a wife and kds to worry about? It's just something to think about, try not to be upset with him for wanting to do what he is. And then of course, add tons of patience (wait), and be understanding!

Bonnie
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Redhothorn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Dec 2001 Posts: 1173

A double major is very smart. I know alot of Music Majors who work in retail stores now etc. If he is that talented and enjoys playing ... he can (and will) play in some capacity the rest of his life. There are many many very talented players out there who di not major in music for one reason or another ... and some who have a Doctorate that can't play their way out of a wet paper bag.

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

Jim,

I have personally never liked the "Double Major" concept myself either. There is no in between when it comes to being a musician. You either are one, or you're not. The music business is rough, and learning the instrument is rough. It takes full commitment; would you want to have someone doing brain surgery who only did it on weekends?

If he doesn't want to be a musician and is not motivated, he shouldn't pursue it. The music field and the trumpet are two things that aren't worth pursuing unless you're 200%+ that you're serious. Otherwise, it's not worth the time and energy.

Not intending to sound mean, but I have always found the double major concept at conservatories pretty insulting to those of us who are serious about our musicianship. Now you see people getting into some conservatories because of their advanced placement credentials rather than their musical ability. It defeats the purpose of the place being a conservatory of music.

JoeCool · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 9:41 am Post subject:

Interesting story and responses. Music is like love and it chooses you.

Your son has a level head. Thank God for that. You never know, he may want to come back to it someday when the rest of life get's crazy. I've always told my son to have a backup plan. Heck, Charles Ives did his best known works when he was doing 9-5 with a family.
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rebelatheart · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject:

Man oh man, what a great thread! Hits close to home, too. Just read my signature. I chose a "logical" career. I'm a pharmacist. Do you think that's much fun?? I'm financially secure. I have a decent income, and job security. If I lost my job today, I'd have 3 job offers tomorrow. However, in the back of my mind, I always wonder about "the path not taken". What if...................
On the otherhand, now that I'm a father, I find myself all too often trying to subconsciously go back and "fix" MY life through my child. BE CAREFUL DAD!
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