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Mpc and BE


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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:05 am    Post subject: Mpc and BE Reply with quote

Probably asked before (I read a new page every other day) but:
As I proceed with my BE practices, almost 3 months by now, I have noticed that my embouchure gets stronger, more focused, sort of; Now I am able to use a Schilke 14D3D (custom made to me by Schilke) an entire rehearsal with the brass band (strenuous stuff indeed, solocornet), since the last 3 weeks.
Before that a regular 14. Also I have tested an old Schilke 11 E which I could not use at all prior to the BE. Could not play in tune, felt to cramped, no endurance.
Today I noticed, having practiced a lot (solely from the book) that when I finally became tired I tested the 11E, and found out that it seemed easier to focus; as if my chops did not have to "space" out that much. Clearer sound
above G on the staff (D still the limit with the cornet)
Reading the book (the n+1 time) I find that mr Smiley has a very flexible approach to the mpc-issue.
Should be very interesting to hear about your experiences in these matters.
Should I go on using the bigger mpc or??? Kind of crossroad.
Someone out there who has similar experiences? I feel kinda lost here - and so many concerts and gigs coming up. Or remain sitting back in the boat keep on practising??
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: Mpc and BE Reply with quote

[quote="Seymor B Fudd"]Probably asked before (I read a new page every other day) but:..............
Today I noticed, having practiced a lot (solely from the book) that when I finally became tired I tested the 11E, and found out that it seemed easier to focus; as if my chops did not have to "space" out that much. Clearer sound above G on the staff (D still the limit with the cornet)...............

Should I go on using the bigger mpc (14D3D) or???......
Someone out there who has similar experiences? ..............?



O sole mio?? (and so are you oh??)
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the whole point of BE is to do the exercises with no preconceived notions and to let the embouchure gravitate to a position that is most efficient. Regarding mouthpieces, then, use what works best.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I believe the whole point of BE is to do the exercises with no preconceived notions and to let the embouchure gravitate to a position that is most efficient. Regarding mouthpieces, then, use what works best.



Transfer gut feelings to lips! Thanks for reminding me - I do have a tendency to rush in these matters.
But also I wanted to know if someone did recognize this fiddling with mpc:s specifically with regards to BE!. From the "mouthpiece forum" I gather it is some kind of preoccupation - the owner of quite a collection myself.
Probably most of you BE followers have been there and done that and have transcended by now?!
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read the recommendation to use a medium to small mouthpiece for BE in order to work on focusing the embouchure properly. The Bach 7C is suggested but, IIRC, the rare DeNicola BE mouthpiece is slightly smaller.

Kent
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OndraJ
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience at beginning was, that the RI exercises were much easier with a Kelly Sreemer. It's small (0,63"), shallow, and slip resistant. So the RI position could be held easier.
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Bert
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I started BE, I played a Yamaha 16C4. Over the first year or so, I moved from a Schilke 14, 11 to avery small Jettone Symphony C. I stayed on that rim (had made some custom pieces by Kanstul with this rim) for quite some time until I felt restricted by the huge rim and small inner diameter. I moved to a Curry 10.5 rim whcih I still play. Recently, though, I discovered a much more efficient way to play RI. To develop this, Jeff advised me to play it on a bigger diameter to give the lips more space to develop properly. So, at this point I do my gigs on the 10.5 and all my practice on a 1.5 Bach. Actually I never played easier and develop my chops in the same time. If you had asked me half a year ago if this was sensible, I would have said no, but I am living proof of the opposite, so like everything else in BE: free yourself to try out a lot and find the most efficient way to play.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have taken a few lessons with Jeff on Schilke H or model 11 (similar to Bach 7C). The only thing he said about mpc was when I was playing rolled in exercises, he noted that I was a bit shrill and suggested trying a deeper mpc.

(Follow-up, I got a Schilke 11 D (one size deeper than the C, the default size for my H/11.) It didn't really do much for me, so I've widened the size to a 13, which is working well).
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Bert
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I need to be a bit more specific. I found a better way to play RI recently. It always bugged me that I heard and saw almost all of my students do it better than me, and I had no clue why that was. For some reason it never entered my mind that I should (or could) move up my mpc much more. Anyway, I started experimenting with mpc placement on RI and I ended up way, way higher than I thought possible. At first I thought I was playing in the red of the bottom lip, but that is not the case. The bottom lip is almost completely rolled in, so the inner rim is a hair from the red of my bottom lip now and very high on the top lip, whereas in normal playing it is the opposite way: very low on the top lip, but not in the red.
Anyway, in that position I could play from C to high C much easier (1 octave, not 2), but everything lower than C in the staff was very hard and sounded awful. Well, for RI that isn't the worst starting position. When I told Jeff about it and sent him some soundfiles, he suggested it would be better to move to a bigger mouthpiece to practice RI on. On my Curry 10.5 movement was restricted, thus hindering development. BE is all about movement, so it immediately made sense that I was restricting myself.
The reason why I thought it important to elaborate a bit more, is that I (and I think Jeff will agree) don't advocate playing on bigger mouthpieces for development, but what I recently learned is that there can be stages in someones development, that it is better to move to a bigger piece, as likely as it is to move to smaller or shallower pieces in other cases. What I see time after time, is that BE is like a big pool of possibilities, and all you need to do is swim around until you don't drown anymore. If you stay in one place......
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
I've read the recommendation to use a medium to small mouthpiece for BE in order to work on focusing the embouchure properly. The Bach 7C is suggested but, IIRC, the rare DeNicola BE mouthpiece is slightly smaller.

Kent



Thanks for most interesting replies! Well this seems to be somewhat complicated! Why so - well, seems you guys fancy smaller diameter mpc:s to do the RI:s; I mean Curry 10.5 is (to me at least) awfully small, 15,89 mm. Bach 7 about 16.20 mm. MR Smiley then recommends wider - Bert - you are now using the Bach 1.5 (17.00 mm) -bottom line making movements of lips easier (or even possible?!). My lifetime mpc was the Bach 1 1/4, 1970 edition; Bach 1 1/2 C (M:t Vernon) I used playing soprano - always thought it was small...
Anyhow - guess it should be easier to do the RI on a smaller mpc (not to small though, but, wouldn´t that be cheating? I mean, the point being to challenge the lips to function within a wider interval??
Then I gather you tend to use smaller diameter mpc for everyday blowing? Bert - you may have heard of Brand Mundstücke? I use a "Lead" for leadchair in a bigband .- don´t know the diameter but it feels far better than my Schilke 14A4 not to mention the 14A4A..
Anyway - obviously BE is a powerful method indeed. I´ve used a lot of trumpet books, mostly Ch Colin 25 years), later Stamp but no one has
impinged on my chops more than BE. Absolutely amazing.
Bert - concerning the RI:s - still somewhat troublesome. Somedays a high C comes out, most days the G;should try your suggestion!
Also I have noticed lately mpc lower on bottom lip makes high register
(well, up to D as of right now) easier, cleaner sound; always running the risk of pressure "strangulating" lips resulting in red face but no sound.
Backing off helps.
Conclusion: I should proceed in same direction, discovering what would possible come up. The tendency to begin fancying smaller diam mpc is not weird...How about mý idea of not making it too easy to do the BE (locomotion ..)??
Or did I get it all wrong? I sure appreciate this forum!
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Bert
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the most important thing is to separate practice from concert/rehearsal. The mistake I made a lot in my life, is that I mix this up and find myself getting into trouble.
Mouthpiecewise that means that I practice on a (for me) big 1.5 Bach. Should I do this on stage, I couldn't get through a set. In my practice sessions however it is important to challenge myself and give myself the freedom and room to experiment and go beyond my borders and break through walls. BE is a safe way to do this.
More generally it means that I do not try to consciously apply all the things I practice when I play a concert.
Most practically it means to do the exercises on equipment that gives you the room (or the restrictions) to reach your goal, and do concerts on equipment that gives you the best result for that occasion. In my case it is rather extreme at this point, but I still want to break a wall or two. If you are more leaning towards maintanance and solid playing, than it might be wiser to keep the exrtremes within certain boundaries. I know of myself that I play easier on smaller mouthpieces, and I did this for years without too many problems. At this point I feel I need to develop beyond that, so I went back swimming the bigger pool again and I love it. I discovered some new fish and long lost islands again, haha!
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bert wrote:
I think the most important thing is to separate practice from concert/rehearsal. The mistake I made a lot in my life, is that I mix this up and find myself getting into trouble.
Mouthpiecewise that means that I practice on a (for me) big 1.5 Bach. Should I do this on stage, I couldn't get through a set. In my practice sessions however it is important to challenge myself and give myself the freedom and room to experiment and go beyond my borders and break through walls. BE is a safe way to do this.
More generally it means that I do not try to consciously apply all the things I practice when I play a concert.
Most practically it means to do the exercises on equipment that gives you the room (or the restrictions) to reach your goal, and do concerts on equipment that gives you the best result for that occasion. In my case it is rather extreme at this point, but I still want to break a wall or two. If you are more leaning towards maintanance and solid playing, than it might be wiser to keep the exrtremes within certain boundaries. I know of myself that I play easier on smaller mouthpieces, and I did this for years without too many problems. At this point I feel I need to develop beyond that, so I went back swimming the bigger pool again and I love it. I discovered some new fish and long lost islands again, haha!


Good points - separating practice. and concerts! But I keep on finding myself applying the BE experiences quite unconsciously although I sometimes will have to remind me, becoming tired, relapsing into old habits.
Then, your new mpc, 8,5 is rather small (16.23mm) for me quite unplayable.
Are you familiar with Brand mpc:s?? I believe they are well below 17,00 probably; very comfortable rim - again - in my taste. Oddly enough I do almost all practising on my Bb cornet , 14d3d including concerts but then I just pick up my trumpet, for big band gigs, using the Brand Lead, no problems at all. In the future to come, apropos, from a distant beach on a long lost island you might hear me blowing through a 11 E!
I wonder what mr Smiley would have to tell about the mpc question - is it recommendabel to use mpc:s that make the practices more easy??
Or after all perhaps irrelevant as long as the process is under way?
Anyway this is exciting!!
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mark61
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't even know what BE is ? Where do I read to get educated?

Thanks
Mark
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark61 wrote:
I don't even know what BE is ? Where do I read to get educated?

Thanks
Mark


"BE" refers to The Balanced Embouchure - a book of exercises to encourage embouchure development by increasing the range of motion in the lips. There's a website at http://trumpetteacher.net/

You could also learn a lot from reading this subforum...
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Bert
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to know about BE, visit the website and if you like what you read, buy the book. It is impossible to learn the method through this forum, the website or any other website or forum. You really need the book.

Regarding mouthpiece choice in BE: it is not one of the important things in BE. Play what makes you happy. Focus on doing the exercises the best way and sooner or later you will discover that you might need a different tool for the job...or not. There are so many factors involved in mpc choice that in earlier stages I personally think it is wise to stay with a piece that works in both practice and performance. When your embouchure develops you'll find your piece of choice.

So, I just got my Bob Reeves 43, cannot wait to try, whahahahahahaha!
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bert wrote:
If you want to know about BE, visit the website and if you like what you read, buy the book. It is impossible to learn the method through this forum, the website or any other website or forum. You really need the book.


Oh yeah... I wasn't suggesting you could get by without the book.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
Bert wrote:
If you want to know about BE, visit the website and if you like what you read, buy the book. It is impossible to learn the method through this forum, the website or any other website or forum. You really need the book.


Oh yeah... I wasn't suggesting you could get by without the book.



Though a sheer treasure is lurking around on this forum.
But go get it you won't regret it! It's a bl-dy miracle. And I have been blowing the last 57 years....Ain't found a method with that impact on your chops, ever. And I have tried them methods...
My chops have made a quantum leap since beginning of January. But "this is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end, it is the end of the beginning"!
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w00005414
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been through the mouthpiece safari and came out on the other side. What I settled on is a Kelly 5c top that I sent to Frost Custom Brass (Matt is great) and had him remove the top and thread it and I use a Frost "8" bottom and I love it. The 5C is middle of the road when it comes to diameter and cup size. The one piece Kelly is super comfortable but kinda sounds like a kazoo but when you take the top off and attach it to a metal bottom it evens out nice. The plastic (for me) has been a game changer... it is super comfortable.

Good luck!
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

w00005414 wrote:
I've been through the mouthpiece safari and came out on the other side. What I settled on is a Kelly 5c top that I sent to Frost Custom Brass (Matt is great) and had him remove the top and thread it and I use a Frost "8" bottom and I love it. The 5C is middle of the road when it comes to diameter and cup size. The one piece Kelly is super comfortable but kinda sounds like a kazoo but when you take the top off and attach it to a metal bottom it evens out nice. The plastic (for me) has been a game changer... it is super comfortable.

Good luck!



Amen to that! Bought myself a Brand mpc (Lead) - by far the best lead mpc I have used (http://www.mundstuecke.ch/). Plastic fantastic; clarity of tone, ease at blowing - no kazoo at all.

Lateley been developing a weird craving for smaller diameter mpc for legit (cornet) so today I will test Denis Wick Ultra, 4 or 5. Intermediate variable BE.
Also, the C3:s (high C) now tend to come out, on a fairly regular basis, pure and focused, doing the RI. Two weeks ago mostly squeaks....
I am so happy to have stumbled upon the BE - after all these years - it sure has the power to get the wheels moving
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Trumpets:
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King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)DW Ultra 7C
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973)/Stork VMS6


Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Wed May 18, 2016 2:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 6:58 am    Post subject: Holy micro! Reply with quote

Concerning BE and MPC:s - addendum may 16:
Lifetime mpc Bach (1970) 1 1/4. Safari began 1994. Never ever able to play mpc:s with less diameter than 17,00. Especially unable to use Denis Wick mpc:s - too narrow, too deep, rim hopeless.
However something is underway - already in Mars able to go from Schilke 14(C cup) to 14D3D(made to me by Schilke).
The Wick 4 did not suit me although it seemed more playable than before but - now, practicing the BE 5 months (very diligently) I am able to use a Denis Wick Ultra nr 7 -diameter 16,25 rather deep cup (haven´t bought it yet, used it a week by now). It´s far deeper than the Schilke 14D3D, might even be deeper than 11E but the tonal quality is much rounder, softer, albeit with a bite if so wished for.
And I considered Bert Lochs´16,23 extremely small and unplayable....

Also: Range sufficient in the BrassBand; able to play eg. "The Dam Busters" by Coates, ending on a D. No rests at all. Not ending up out of business.

Someone out there able to explain this miracle???How come? The unconscious work of my obviously, in spite of age, adaptable lips?
Anyone else with same experience??
Probably I am just repeating what already has been said but I felt that I just had to express myself! I am immensely astonished/flabbergasted!
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