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My New* Mt. Vernon Bach Strad


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unctrumpeter
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: My New* Mt. Vernon Bach Strad Reply with quote

So I recently found this Bach Stradivarius in a local music store. I ended up paying $2200.00 after taxes. From what I gather it was made in 1964 after Bach closed his shop and before he move his workshop to Elkhart. It's serial number is 25xxx and although the serial number/bore size has been severely worn off I believe this is a M bore. That leads me to assume it's probably a 38 bell and 25 leadpipe based on what I've read online.

So what does the trumpet community think? Good deal or Bad Deal? Thoughts on the horn? What about a horn of this age?

https://imgur.com/a/qLmHt
[/img]
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y-o-y
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tar heel alum checking in!

I don't have any thoughts on your questions, but I am deeply concerned by the O-rings on the slides. NOT ORIGINAL!!!!

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unctrumpeter
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject: O Rings Reply with quote

Lol that's Sam Ash for you....I don't mind them for now
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Adam R. Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: My New* Mt. Vernon Bach Strad Reply with quote

unctrumpeter wrote:
So I recently found this Bach Stradivarius in a local music store. I ended up paying $2200.00 after taxes. From what I gather it was made in 1964 after Bach closed his shop and before he move his workshop to Elkhart. It's serial number is 25xxx and although the serial number/bore size has been severely worn off I believe this is a M bore. That leads me to assume it's probably a 38 bell and 25 leadpipe based on what I've read online.

So what does the trumpet community think? Good deal or Bad Deal? Thoughts on the horn? What about a horn of this age?

https://imgur.com/a/qLmHt
[/img]


That's a weird spot for wear. To me it looks like someone did that deliberately. Also no wear on the other two balusters.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: My New* Mt. Vernon Bach Strad Reply with quote

Adam R. Getzen wrote:
...That's a weird spot for wear. To me it looks like someone did that deliberately. Also no wear on the other two balusters.

+1

Just an observation, it looks filed-off with deep scratches where the sn used to be and rough markings on the 1st baluster where the end of the file (?) hit the metal whilst erasing the number.

I'd rather leave any conclusions as to whether this is a good deal or a bad deal to other people...

MvW.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:04 am    Post subject: Re: My New* Mt. Vernon Bach Strad Reply with quote

unctrumpeter wrote:
So I recently found this Bach Stradivarius in a local music store. I ended up paying $2200.00 after taxes. From what I gather it was made in 1964 after Bach closed his shop and before he move his workshop to Elkhart. It's serial number is 25xxx and although the serial number/bore size has been severely worn off I believe this is a M bore. That leads me to assume it's probably a 38 bell and 25 leadpipe based on what I've read online.

So what does the trumpet community think? Good deal or Bad Deal? Thoughts on the horn? What about a horn of this age?

https://imgur.com/a/qLmHt
[/img]


How does it play ?
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JazzFluegel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same price that I sold my mint orig 59 for half dozen years ago after acquiring an 8310Z. You likely can still get an e-copy of the mfr orig shop card from thru Selmer.
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Paladin53
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks to me the serial number was removed. Those are tool marks, not wear.
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steevo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the other comments about the serial number.

Looking at the photos as to what is left of the bore letter(s), I am inclined to believe I see what is left of an 'L'. You may want to measure the bore size to determine what the bore actually is.
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rockford
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like one of the last of the Selmer/Mt. Vernon's. Look inside on the valve stems for the serial number. Send it to me privately and I'll be able to help you out.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad this wasn't posted this BEFORE paying so much money. As others have mentioned the serial number was filed off indicating it may have been stolen at some point. It also looks like the ML may have been intentionally damaged.

If it plays well then you have a Mt Vernon Strad but that damage greatly reduces the value.

Kent
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a collector your horn was expensive for what I'm seeing in the photos especially for an M bore. This is without reference to the fact that the filed off serial number would be a deal killer for any collector. Just my opinion.
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rockford
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
Too bad this wasn't posted this BEFORE paying so much money. As others have mentioned the serial number was filed off indicating it may have been stolen at some point. It also looks like the ML may have been intentionally damaged.

If it plays well then you have a Mt Vernon Strad but that damage greatly reduces the value.

Kent
Fortunately, the bell markings are undamaged. Other than the serial number filing it looks like a well preserved original Selmer/Mt. Vernon. Just a caution. Don't try to rehabilitate or restamp the serial number or otherwise mess with it. It can only make it worse from a collector's standpoint. While the price is a little on the high side, most of the 1961-64 Selmer/Mt. Vernon's play really well. If you like the way it plays then the price is less important.
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brianj
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: My New* Mt. Vernon Bach Strad Reply with quote

unctrumpeter wrote:
So I recently found this Bach Stradivarius in a local music store. I ended up paying $2200.00 after taxes. From what I gather it was made in 1964 after Bach closed his shop and before he move his workshop to Elkhart. It's serial number is 25xxx and although the serial number/bore size has been severely worn off I believe this is a M bore. That leads me to assume it's probably a 38 bell and 25 leadpipe based on what I've read online.

So what does the trumpet community think? Good deal or Bad Deal? Thoughts on the horn? What about a horn of this age?

https://imgur.com/a/qLmHt
[/img]

Hi

As to whether it's a good or bad deal it depends how it plays. If it plays as well or better than other hooters that you'd pay $2200 for you've done well, if not then it wouldn't be so good. I say this because in my opinion, and this is only an opinion based on those pics, but I also think the serial number has been deliberately removed. That would discount most collectors from paying anything like market value for the trumpet. A player on the other hand would only care about how well it played so the value would be determined on it's playing value to that particular individual.

As an aside, I sold a mint 1941 New York Bach Strad (I got it from Andy Taylor and it was a beauty) for a little bit less than what you've paid but the US market is probably stronger for vintage Bachs than here in the UK.

all the best

brian jones
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm surprised that a reputable music store sold a horn for that price with the dubious serial number issue. But, then again, maybe not...
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unctrumpeter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I can think of is that where that work was done on the baluster where the bell connects to the first valve is right where the meaty part of ones left palm rests on the valve casing. There was also major wear on the first valve where the thumb rested so I assume a really acidic hand played this horn before.

As far as the serial number I'd like to think that somewhere down the line no one filed it down for illegal reasons. My guess is that an inexperienced cleaner way back when was trying to get rid of this think black material that still exists around the valve casing and when getting rid of it he rubbed off some of the serial number and bore. If someone had stole the horn I would think the whole serial number and bore would be unrecognizable. That's not the case here, I can clearly see that the serial number is 25XXX with a single "M" above the numbers

The horn plays fantastically and is much better than the 2001 limited edition model 198 I had and better than the remade Bach NY 7 that Bach makes now which is my government horn

I really do love the horn. I believe it's an authentic Mt. Vernon Strad made in 1964 (based on the Bach loyalist numbers). I was concerned with the serial number thing as well. It's sad to hear this effects the collecability of the horn but I just can't convince myself it was rubbed of intentionally for illegal reasons. When you inspect the horn close up you can really see what the numbers should be and the fact that there is only a Single "M" and not a "ML"


Thanks everyone for posting and giving me feedback on my purchase! I wish some reputable old Bach players could give this horn a try.

Thanks again!!
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Last edited by unctrumpeter on Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dr-pepp
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unctrumpeter wrote:
As far as the serial number I'd like to think that somewhere down the line no one filed it down for illegal reasons.

but I just can't convince myself it was rubbed of intentionally for illegal reasons. When you inspect the horn close up you can really see what the numbers should be and the fact that there is only a Single "M" and not a "ML"


While I agree that the horn has some wear (as evidenced by the small patch where the bell connects to the valve block), the serial number engraving on Bachs of this vintage is fairly deep (just like the square Bach stamp that is clearly visable on the other side of the valve casing on this horn).

I clearly see the remnants of an "L" where the "ML" would be for the bore size.

It really seems that you just don't want to see what others are seeing in your photos. While it is speculation about why the serial numbers were removed, the very clear engraving on the other side of the valves doesn't suggest that the serial numbers just wore off or a clumsy tech or owner accidently removed them.

But at least for the bore size, since you know the serial number, just email Conn-Selmer and in a week or so, they'll send you a jpeg of the shop card and you will know the original specs on the horn. I think I see evidence of where the post for a first valve trigger was mounted, so that would also be listed on the shop card.

Best of luck.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr-pepp wrote:
unctrumpeter wrote:
As far as the serial number I'd like to think that somewhere down the line no one filed it down for illegal reasons.

but I just can't convince myself it was rubbed of intentionally for illegal reasons. When you inspect the horn close up you can really see what the numbers should be and the fact that there is only a Single "M" and not a "ML"


While I agree that the horn has some wear (as evidenced by the small patch where the bell connects to the valve block), the serial number engraving on Bachs of this vintage is fairly deep (just like the square Bach stamp that is clearly visable on the other side of the valve casing on this horn).

I clearly see the remnants of an "L" where the "ML" would be for the bore size.

It really seems that you just don't want to see what others are seeing in your photos. While it is speculation about why the serial numbers were removed, the very clear engraving on the other side of the valves doesn't suggest that the serial numbers just wore off or a clumsy tech or owner accidently removed them.

But at least for the bore size, since you know the serial number, just email Conn-Selmer and in a week or so, they'll send you a jpeg of the shop card and you will know the original specs on the horn. I think I see evidence of where the post for a first valve trigger was mounted, so that would also be listed on the shop card.

Best of luck.

A first valve trigger would explain the solder spot on the first valve.

I am guessing with all the discussion about the serial number and possible theft in this thread that we might learn if it was stolen just due to someone radiant this.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paladin53 wrote:
It looks to me the serial number was removed. Those are tool marks, not wear.


I would agree, plus there are corresponding gouges in the first valve casing, maybe made by the same tool?

Brad
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unctrumpeter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah after much thought I have to tend to agree that the serial number was more than likely removed on purpose although it hurts to say it so. With this horn over 50 years old I have no idea where along the line this trumpet was dealt illegally. I know that I bought this off a Sam Ash here in San Antonio and have the receipt t prove it.
I have always wanted to own a vintage Bach Mt. Vernon/New York. I plan on playing it but am disappointed the serial number being rubbed off purposely greatly depreciates the horn but in retrospect that should have been clear to me...I guess I was just blinded by the fact that this is a Mt. Vernon Bach Strad!!

I'm guessing many of you wouldn't have paid what I have paid or even bought the horn at all. I've contacted Conn-Selmer via voice message and email. Hopefully I can learn the bell and leadpipe size along with the bore size. I've looked at the valve a lot and just see the remnants of a "M" but whomever damaged this horn may have completely got rid of the L in ML.

Thanks again for all the input. I appreciate it
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