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Ed Kennedy
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 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen wear like that on various overhauls. I think that either the right thumb or the middle finger of someone with large hands rested there for 20 or so years. I see the mark on the 1st balluster, but that isn't neccessarily connected. (Wear like that on the 1st or 3rd can be treated by simply rotating the baluster to the inside for the next 20 years of wear.)
Last edited by Ed Kennedy on Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chickndinnr
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Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Shop card? |
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Daniel Barenboim
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Joined: 20 May 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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sketchy
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unctrumpeter
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Chickndinnr wrote: | | Shop card? |
Contacted them this evening.
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unctrumpeter
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I've seen wear like that on various overhauls. I think that either the right thumb or the middle finger of someone with large hands rested there for 20 or so years. I see the mark on the 1st balluster, but that isn't neccessarily connected. (Wear like that on the 1st or 3rd can be treated by simply rotating the baluster to the inside for the next 20 years of wear.) |
This is the glass half-full mentality I had as well but the others maybe right it might have been filed (although if it was filed I wonder why the serial number wasn't completely erased hmmm....)
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12664
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe the horn was stolen, recovered and subsequently resold by the legitimate owner.
One word to the wise, I believe whoever is holding a stolen horn is the one who loses the money. You might want to speak with Sam Ash about the provenance, just in case. They might have a good, for you, back story. |
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TrumpetMD
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2416
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| unctrumpeter wrote: | | I'm guessing many of you wouldn't have paid what I have paid or even bought the horn at all. |
Yes and no. The price of the horn is somewhat subjective. When purchasing from a dealer, the price tends to be higher, because you're paying for value added by the dealer. In this case, the dealer likely evaluated and serviced the horn, and offered some type of guarantee. All of that adds to the price of the horn beyond it's actual value.
All that being said, the markings around the serial number detract from its value, whether it was done for illicit reasons or not. In addition, the patch on the horn (around the 10th pic, presumably coming out of the 3rd valve) detracts from its value. Any red rot in the lead pipe would detract from its values. And any problems with valve compression would detract from its value.
Also to restate what was said by others, all 3 valves should be stamped with the serial number. Check to see, to get the actual serial number of the horn. However, if the numbers differ, or were scratched off, this would also detract from its value.
Regarding the model, I suspect it's a model 37, ML bore. The bell just says "Model", which I believe defaults to the 37. (Can anyone confirm this?) And as already been stated, it appears that the "L" was removed from the "ML" designation on the valve casing.
I suspect a Mt Vernon Strad in good to excellent condition, with case, would be worth about $1,200 to $1,800. Maybe a bit more. Maybe a bit less. I'm assuming it's an ML 37 Strad, which I believe would be worth more than the M 38 Strad you originally thought it was. And like I said, since a dealer was selling it, you have to add maybe $200 to $500 to the cost. So if you ignore the issues noted above, you're in the high range, but not necessarily an unreasonable range for this type of horn.
A question for the group -- Was it legal for Sam Ash to sell a horn where the serial number couldn't be definitively identified? In addition, would any of you purchase a horn where the serial number couldn't be identified?
Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TrumpetMD wrote: |
I suspect a Mt Vernon Strad in good to excellent condition, with case, would be worth about $1,200 to $1,800. Maybe a bit more. Maybe a bit less.
A question for the group -- Was it legal for Sam Ash to sell a horn where the serial number couldn't be definitively identified? In addition, would any of you purchase a horn where the serial number couldn't be identified? |
A Mt. Vernon Strad in ML bore, lacquered and in excellent condition with case would easily be an $1,800+ horn. I've seen them for as much as $3,000. In an M bore in the condition purchased by the OP (disregarding the disfiguring of the serial number) it would probably be in the $1,400 to $1,500 range. The disfigured serial number reduces that value considerably.
I don't think selling a horn with an unidentifiable serial number creates any legal issue on the basis of that fact alone. If the horn is identified as having been stolen then the OP is entitled to return the horn for a full refund from Sam Ash because of a breach of warranty of title.
For collection/investment purposes I wouldn't consider buying a horn without a clear serial number (assuming the horn originally had a serial number).
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TrumpetMD
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Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | A Mt. Vernon Strad in ML bore, lacquered and in excellent condition with case would easily be an $1,800+ horn.... |
My estimate might be on the lower side ... mine often are. Thanks for the additional information. And thanks for your thoughts on the serial number.
EDIT: FWIW, I think every horn has 3 prices. There's the retail price or the appraised value (for a used horn), which tend to be unrealistically high. There's the sale price, or the price you have to pay to purchase the horn, which is what the OP paid. And then there's the actual value of the horn, or the money you'd get if you turned around and sold the horn the day after purchasing it. My estimate was for the actual value, which tends to be lower the the sale price. And of course, it was just IMHO.
Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Last edited by TrumpetMD on Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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A.N.A.Mendez
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Location: ca.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Rough crowd..........
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☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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brianj
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Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| unctrumpeter wrote: |
The horn plays fantastically and is much better than the 2001 limited edition model 198 I had and better than the remade Bach NY 7 that Bach makes now which is my government horn
I really do love the horn. I believe it's an authentic Mt. Vernon Strad made in 1964 (based on the Bach loyalist numbers). I was concerned with the serial number thing as well. It's sad to hear this effects the collecability of the horn but I just can't convince myself it was rubbed of intentionally for illegal reasons. When you inspect the horn close up you can really see what the numbers should be and the fact that there is only a Single "M" and not a "ML"
Thanks everyone for posting and giving me feedback on my purchase! I wish some reputable old Bach players could give this horn a try.
Thanks again!! |
Hi
You asked earlier whether we thought you'd got a good deal - you have answered your own question here. The fact that you prefer it to a couple of more recent Bachs means you've made a great choice for you and $2200 is not a lot to pay at all for the right hooter.
Enjoy it and have fun, some folks search forever for the elusive "perfect" hooter.
all the very best
brian jones |
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dr-pepp
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Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 541
Location: Austin TX
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:01 am Post subject: |
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unctrumpeter,
just sent you a pm with the last email address that I used to successfully obtain a Mount Vernon shop card.
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Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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Chickndinnr
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Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| When you do get that shop card - pls post it for us to enjoy! The best is when they have some tie to an awesome trumpeter - Clay (who posted on this board) sold a Mt. Vernon owned by Ghitalla. Pretty cool. Or weirder, it'll say some other bell or other detail that your horn clearly isn't, then the mystery begins. |
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unctrumpeter
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Posts: 27
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Chickndinnr wrote: | | When you do get that shop card - pls post it for us to enjoy! The best is when they have some tie to an awesome trumpeter - Clay (who posted on this board) sold a Mt. Vernon owned by Ghitalla. Pretty cool. Or weirder, it'll say some other bell or other detail that your horn clearly isn't, then the mystery begins. |
Will do! I've sent two emails to customer service and then another email someone PMed me. Hopefully I hear back next week
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Irving
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| If there is no bell number stamped, that doesn't mean that it is a 37. You need to get the shop card to verify which bell it has. |
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dr-pepp
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Location: Austin TX
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:04 am Post subject: |
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That is correct, if there is not a bell number stamped on the horn, that does not mean it is a 37.
I've had several Mount Vernon era Bachs that did not have a bell number on them that turned out to be model 43 bells.
 [/img]
A local player who a good friend and refers a lot of students to me has owned his Mount Vernon Bach since new. He always assumed he was playing on a 37 bell but when I requested a shop card, we found that it was a 43 after all!
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Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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TrumpetMD
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Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| brianj wrote: | You asked earlier whether we thought you'd got a good deal - you have answered your own question here. The fact that you prefer it to a couple of more recent Bachs means you've made a great choice for you and $2200 is not a lot to pay at all for the right hooter.
Enjoy it and have fun, some folks search forever for the elusive "perfect" hooter. |
Great reply.
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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NYC-player
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:18 am Post subject: Re: My New* Mt. Vernon Bach Strad |
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| unctrumpeter wrote: | So I recently found this Bach Stradivarius in a local music store. I ended up paying $2200.00 after taxes. From what I gather it was made in 1964 after Bach closed his shop and before he move his workshop to Elkhart. It's serial number is 25xxx and although the serial number/bore size has been severely worn off I believe this is a M bore. That leads me to assume it's probably a 38 bell and 25 leadpipe based on what I've read online.
So what does the trumpet community think? Good deal or Bad Deal? Thoughts on the horn? What about a horn of this age?
https://imgur.com/a/qLmHt
[/img] |
Did you measure the second valve slide to check bore size??
Also, it looks like a 43 bell to me |
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iiipopes
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TrumpetMD wrote: | A question for the group -- Was it legal for Sam Ash to sell a horn where the serial number couldn't be definitively identified? In addition, would any of you purchase a horn where the serial number couldn't be identified?
Mike |
This is a trumpet, not a firearm or a motor vehicle. With proper disclaimers, just about anything can be sold at any time in any condition (there are exceptions, but beyond the scope of a forum thread). The problem comes from either: 1) a seller knew he got too good of a deal when he acquired it, which is hard to prove, or 2) a seller tries to claim something is something it is not when selling it. It appears neither happened here, and is in the wide area of where reasonable persons may differ as to it being a good deal or a bad deal, or something in the middle. Pricing is only one element in this regard, especially with all the other details that have been discussed.
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King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
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unctrumpeter
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Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: |
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https://imgur.com/a/y8LUu
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Last edited by unctrumpeter on Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:15 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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