Yamaha trumpets and mouthpiece gap

[Louise Finch]

Hi

I have a second generation Yamaha YTR-8335 Xeno trumpet.

I can't personally get it to play well for me with my stock Bach 3C mouthpieces which insert 24mm in the receiver.

It however plays great for me with a Kanstul copy of my Bach 3C, sleeved by forum member Mike Prestage to insert 25mm.

25mm just happens to be the insertion amount of the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece.

I am wondering about a few things:

1. My Bach 3C also inserts 24mm in my Bach 37. Do Bach mouthpieces made since 2000 generally insert 24mm in Bach and Yamaha trumpets, or are the ones that I have (all from around 2005) atypical? My mid 1990s Bach 7C inserts 25mm.

2. Have other Yamaha trumpet players found that Bach mouthpieces with larger shanks which insert less far, play less well for them in their Yamaha trumpet, or is the greater insertion amount of Bach mouthpieces with smaller shanks just what works best for me personally on my Yamaha trumpet?

3. Yamaha trumpet players who have had their mouthpiece sleeved, which size please works well for you with a middle of the road mouthpiece such as a Bach C cup?

Many Thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[zaferis]

Lou, I'll get the ball rolling... I have never made any measurements, just a bit on side-by-side comparisons of "stock" mouthpieces.. I do find that the recievers from Yamaha to Bach are generally different and that the mouthpieces correspondingly so.

-edited to correct myself-
So, IMO Yamaha mouthpieces fit too far into Bach trumpets and Bach mouthpieces not far enough into Yamaha trumpets. Ever so slightly.
Like I wrote, not a scientific study but a comparison of the mouthpieces I have in my somewhat large collection and various trumpets I've had access to over the years.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[lipshurt]

Zaferis...... that is generally backwards

bachs are bigger about .385

yamaha are about .383

variation exists of course, but bachs generally have about .040 more gap

a reeves sleeve 4 is about .060 more gap than a reeves 5 sleeve

its more likely for a bach piece to work with a yamaha than a yamaha piece to work with a bach.

everyone is different of course, this is just general stuff that applies about 7 out of ten times.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[ScottA]

Lou,
Not sure I have an answer for your question but I have been waiting for someone to bring up the gap issue on the new Chicago models.

For whatever reason Yamaha changed the mouthpiece receiver position rather drastically on the new Chicago. (At least on the Bb, I have not checked a C) The first generation usually required the GR pieces to have a slightly larger shank (.388) for the best gap for me which was about .150-160. The 2nd generation is the exact opposite and the same shank will create a gap of slightly over .200". That is a considerable change. A standard Bach is measuring close to .150 on my Chicago. I sent an inquiry to Wayne Tanabe but I did not receive a reply. In the past I have found the folks at Yamaha somewhat hesitant to discuss gap issues for some reason.

FWIW- I have not found any huge draw back to playing with the very large gap. Upper register is a bit more work but slotting, pitch and articulations have seemed fine. Anyone else have experience playing with a larger than normal gap? The piece I have been using is quite deep--a GR E65VB with a #3 backbore.
_________________
Scott Apelgren
Indialantic, FL

[B. Scriver]

GR will be offering two shanks with the new Eric Miyashiro Series GR Mouthpieces; .385" and .387". We are just working out how many of each for the first run with Eric!

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com

[ScottA]

Just realized that I jumped the gun...was thinking the Chicago is the 8335 when it is the 9335. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

In measuring a new Xeno compared to a new Chicago, the Xeno has about .045" less gap.
_________________
Scott Apelgren
Indialantic, FL

[zaferis]

[Daniel Barenboim]

Are we talking current Bach pieces or older?

DB

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[kandor]

Dear Louise Finch,
I believe that measuring the total insertion on a mpc into a receiver gives you essentially a meaningless number. It depends on receiver design and wear, combined with mpc shank design and wear.
What you probably want is measuring the gap between the end of you mpc and the beginning of the leadpipe. That is usually in the range 0...6 millimeters.
If you don't mind, here is my homemade method using a toothpick. The measurement is not really accurate, but allows you to do some pretty good comparisons:

First cut a tootpick 90 degrees to create a flat end:


Then insert it in the receiver while keeping it in contact with the wall, until it stops at the leadpipe edge. Measure the insertion:


Insert the mouthpiece and measure the insertion, what you already did:


And finally superimposing the two measurements you see the gap:
[/img]

I hope this can help, that was what I was doing before finally buying a digital caliper.
_________________
Yamaha, Bach, B&S, Kuehnl & Hoyer

[Louise Finch]

[Blancolate]

Very interesting topic.

I play mostly an Eric Miyashiro Yamaha trumpet and play it with a Bach 3D cut for Bob Reeves Sleeves. I use a 5.25 sleeve.

This is a great horn but intonation can be tricky.....I can sometimes even feel a very slight movement in the receiver.

According to the numbers or the experience you guys may have had, which Bob Reeves sleeve should work best with Yamaha?

Thank you

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

Hi

As a quick update, Jim New kindly sent me two #6, two #6.5 and two #7 sleeves to try with my new cut for sleeves backbores.

After quite a bit of experimentation, I'm going with the #6.5s on my 2nd generation Yamaha Xeno.

I'm not sure how Jim New's sleeves compare to Reeves sleeves, I'm guessing they size very similarly, but his #6.5 gaps very similarly to a Kanstul B series trumpet backbore (which I have always understood to gap equivalently to a Reeves 6.5 sleeve, which suggests that Reeves and James R New sleeve sizes are the same) and the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece.

All the best

Lou

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Bflatman]

Clearly I am missing something here, I always thought that the insertion depth simply fixed the mouthpiece in the same position each time in the receiver, and the location of the mouthpiece then creates the length of the tube from mouthpiece throat to bell within which the wavelengths of the sound waves can propagate.

The tuning slide then can adjust the effective length of the tube and therefore the pitch.

In effect if two mouthpieces sit in radically different depths in the receiver such that one is 10mm deeper than the other, simply pulling the main tuning slide 5mm should compensate and correct the discrepancy and make the tube length the same and therefore the pitch would be made to be the same.

As we are dealing (so I thought) with a simple tube adjusted by tuning slides to any incremental length we desire, doesnt the depth the mouthpiece sit in the receiver become irrelevant if one can adjust the tuning slide to fully and entirely compensate for any differences of depth of the mouthpiece?

[Louise Finch]