Yamaha trumpets and mouthpiece gap

[Bflatman]

Thanks for the welcome.

I understand now and thanks for that explanation of the issue but it opens another topic.

I come from an engineers background and the gap you mention is simply a requirement of a taper. Without a gap the taper cannot hold the pieces together securely.

And furthermore, shallow tapers such as those on mouthpieces - and what I mean by shallow is a taper close to parallel but not parallel, thus allowing a snug mechanical fit, will over time adjust the seating position with wear, and the inner piece (in this case the mouthpiece) will sit progressively deeper into the outer piece over time.

The design of the taper is such that wear that happens over time between the two parts that mate is expected and designed into the whole system.

If there was little or no gap to begin with then things would be fine for a year or two but then as the taper mating surfaces wear, the gap would eventually entirely disappear and then the parts would never properly mate again.

Katherine Derksen has reported that many conn trumpet mouthpieces over time have experienced wear and the receiver has indeed been reshaped due to this wear between mouthpiece and receiver. So it does really happen and has been observed.

I myself have a trumpet from the 1930's in which some trumpet mouthpieces now no longer fit but simply bottom out in the receiver when they hit the end of the leadpipe. These mouthpieces then rattle and fall out, because the taper just doesnt work any more.

Is there a solution if zero gap is acceptable, how many years would it be acceptable for tapers to work, and what do we do when the inevitable happens and the mouthpieces never fit again, do we have a new receiver fitted every 10 years or so. Or should we now change instrument design and either fit receivers inside leadpipes so the issue goes away.

Should we instead consider a system of shims, or inner replaceable rings to take up this gap and swap them as the wear happens.

But then I swap mouthpieces to achieve different tone colours, and there is a difference between these mouthpieces in how deep they sit in the receiver.

I am not sure of the way forward on this, what are your thoughts.

[lipshurt]

If the tapers are parallel, it is going to take a very long time to wear significantly. If the tapers are not parallel it will wear much faster.

There are receivers that are slightly the wrong taper, and mouthpieces that are wrong, so an old horn could have lots of possible issues. Having said that, the most common issue with an old horn receivr is that it might not be round. Especially old conns where the receiver is made of tubing instead of turned from stock (22B etc). Those receivers if they are out of round are hard to fix cuz if you tap them round with a hammer they sing right back in a little bit of time, or instantly. you have to ream them and your reamer needs to be modified on the end. or replace the receiver of course. Sometimes hard to do.
Connstellations (38b, 36b, 10b, 6b) don't have receivers that come off. Its all just one piece of electroformed copper. Its hard to get some people to believe that though. There is no way to replace the receiver on those. those are almost always in great shape though cuz the tapers were right when made, and the nickel plating inside is really really hard and wear resistant.

if you ream it, then its straight, but too big, and then you need to sleeve the shank.
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[TrumpetDan79]

Hi Louise,

Might I give you a different take on this? YAMAHA gaps, especially on the newer models like the 8335, are set to a specific dimension. Since you described the mouthpiece insertion measurement as being very similar in mm, might I suggest you take the trumpet to a YAMAHA technician to get an adjustment?

Unless the insertion amount is out of the ordinary, the gap might not be an issue. Every player has a different resistance need.

1. Try testing the sound and response by "clocking" the mouthpiece 1/4 turn. Does one position sound and feel better? When you find it, memorize where the mouthpiece is.

2. The waterkey screw on the main tuning slide can add/take away vibration from the trumpet, and increase/decrease some resistance. Make sure it is all the way tightened. Play. Make a judgement. Then loosen slightly until you find a sweet spot for resonance.

3. Valve alignment greatly affects resistance inside the trumpet. I don't believe in "zero-ing" out the valves on principle, and only align the valves to the point where the trumpet plays fine for ME.

I just wanted to offer you a different viewpoint, one that might save you a bundle. Once you have a mouthpiece modified for a sleeve, you can't reverse the process.

However, this is a very personal decision, so you must employ the best solution you see fit.

Hope this helps,

Daniel
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Daniel J. Flores
Trumpet Artist
www.dflorestrumpet.com

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[kerouack]

It is not hard to believe that Yamaha design their mpcs and horns to work together in the best posible way.

So if you want to use another different mpc in a Yamaha trumpet, you have to make sure yourself that it also works in the best posible way.

[Louise Finch]

[abontrumpet]

[Louise Finch]

All I can say is that with my Bach 3C that inserts around 24mm in the receiver of my Yamaha Xeno II, it played stuffy and even sounded slightly stuffy. I experimented with the James R New gap modulator, and sleeves, and found that in my opinion, the Xeno II is pretty gap sensitive. Whereas my Bach 37 plays well for me within a wider gap range, I found the Xeno II to have a narrow sweet spot gap range within which the trumpet suddenly opened up in terms of response and sound, and literally came alive in my hand. This for me was with a gap that replicated that of a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece, and I honestly do not think that this is a coincidence.

Just to clarify, this is on a Xeno II, I’ve never played an Artist series so have no idea regarding them, and although everybody’s mileage will vary, I personally will stand by my gap findings for me on my Xeno II.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[abontrumpet]

[Louise Finch]

[kerouack]

Hello,
Thank you very much for your post.

May be the GAP in a Yamaha Xeno gen 2 is not the same than the GAP in an Yamaha Artist model New York Gen 3 that I have when in both we use a Yamaha mouthpiece.
BUT probably in both, is the best or a very good GAP for the majority of players in that different horn.


I just checked two Yamaha mouthpieces with my Yamaha Artist model New York Gen 3, and both insert 27 mm into the receiver.

So the next step is to check with other Mpc brands.


My point s not that the only good possibility is to play same mpc brand than the trumpet brand, is that if you want to avoid mistakes, spend lot of money, think a lot, study a lot about it.... is the best option to keep things great and simple.

[stuartissimo]

[kerouack]

Yamaha Artist model New York Gen 3

The new mpc I bought them a month ago, but how knows how much time they were in the shop....
My way of measuring is not completely perfect.

How many mm each mpc goes inside:

Yamaha 17B4 included with the horn: 26 mm
Yamaha 14C4 GP (new) : 27 mm
Yamaha 14B4 (new) : 27 mm


BACH 3C big letters from 27 years ago. : 25,5 mm
BACH 1/2 C small lets from 32 years ago : 25,5 mm

BACH symphonic 1 1/2 C ( 24, 24) : 26,3 mm

GR 3M : 25,5 mm
GR 3MX : 25,5 mm

[abontrumpet]

[abontrumpet]

[kerouack]

I don't agree, a Bach mouthpiece in a yamaha horn in general I think is not a good fit.


I think a lot of people don't understand me, cause don't know me, I am an engineer , not the pope. My actual opinion is not a religion for me and it can change. But it can change based on facts, not another religion.


YAMAHA 14D4: 27 mm
YAMAHA 14E4: 27 mm


The Yamaha 17B4 is an special mpc, cause is included with the horn.
Also it has a bigger rim.

It could be that with a bigger rim, or cup volume a bigger gap is better, 26mm instead of 27 mm, or could also be that is a very special mpc that has other changes, to match this specific trumpet model.

In any case, what I see is that a Bach 3C mpc works worst in this Yamaha trumpet, and also the GAP is a lot bigger than with yamaha pieces.

May be the reason that the Bachs work worst is not the GAP, but the rule of " if you want a great result with an easy choice " remains using a mpc same brand as the horn.

[Louise Finch]

[hose]

In the last five years I have bought two new Yamaha's. They came with different Yamaha mpcs. The "classical" Xeno came with a 16C4. The 6535RC (commercial) came with a 14B4. With calipers I measured gaps of several shanks in these two Yamaha models.

The more "classical" Xeno gap with the Pickett shanks is .130. (.140 with a GR.) The 6535RC (commercial) gap with the Pickett shank is .090. A GR is .100. I believe Yamaha adjusts their receivers to the style for what the horn's generally intended use. Larger gap for classical playing and smaller gap for commercial use.
_________________
Dave Wisner

Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet

[kehaulani]

Dave - is the implication that, it doesn't matter iwhether you're using a Yamaha mouthpiece or not?
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