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hose
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Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 1854
Location: Winter Garden, FL
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 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Dave - is the implication that, it doesn't matter iwhether you're using a Yamaha mouthpiece or not? |
kehaulani, You made me think.  I did those measurements because I am a hopeless trumpet nerd. I guess the implication is yes, on a small sample, it doesn't make any difference. We all have our subjective and objective brand preferences.
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Dave Wisner
Picketts
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9033
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Dave.
BTW, in case you're too young to have heard this - "Dave? Dave's not here."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtDAK7Umk7A
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1783
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | So you are explicitly stating that I’m wrong? I would not go as far as to tell another player that I explicitly think that they are wrong. I would have to be absolutely 100% confident that I was fully right and the other person was fully wrong, and even then I don't think that I would explicitly tell someone that they were wrong. Unless they were doing something risky or dangerous, they are entitled to their own opinion. |
My statement is "you cannot try 2 different mouthpieces and draw any definitive conclusions." If you disagree with it, in my opinion, you are incorrect. There are too many variables to account for, unfortunately. It wouldn't hold up to any scientific scrutiny (or at least the spirit of scientific scrutiny). I am not sure anybody would disagree with my statement? There was no implication, it was all out in the open.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | It is a yes |
Thank you.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | I’m not going to get out a magnifying glass and check every line in minute detail. |
That is part of my statement above about scientific scrutiny (or the spirit of).
| Louise Finch wrote: | | This sounds a bit like sarcasm, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, I never said anything so definite or bold |
It was not sarcasm and the apologies were issued.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | Anyway, this is my last post on this subject, as I firstly don’t have the time to keep on justifying my views, and secondly I shouldn’t have to. |
I agree that you shouldn't have to. I am not compelling you to do so. I agree that it is time consuming!
All the best |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| kerouack wrote: | | I don't agree, a Bach mouthpiece in a yamaha horn in general I think is not a good fit. |
Many disagree with you.
| kerouack wrote: | The Yamaha 17B4 is an special mpc, cause is included with the horn.
Also it has a bigger rim. |
It is not a special mouthpiece, it is a Yamaha blank. |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | | So you are explicitly stating that I’m wrong? I would not go as far as to tell another player that I explicitly think that they are wrong. I would have to be absolutely 100% confident that I was fully right and the other person was fully wrong, and even then I don't think that I would explicitly tell someone that they were wrong. Unless they were doing something risky or dangerous, they are entitled to their own opinion. |
My statement is "you cannot try 2 different mouthpieces and draw any definitive conclusions." If you disagree with it, in my opinion, you are incorrect. There are too many variables to account for, unfortunately. It wouldn't hold up to any scientific scrutiny (or at least the spirit of scientific scrutiny). I am not sure anybody would disagree with my statement? There was no implication, it was all out in the open.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | It is a yes |
Thank you.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | I’m not going to get out a magnifying glass and check every line in minute detail. |
That is part of my statement above about scientific scrutiny (or the spirit of).
| Louise Finch wrote: | | This sounds a bit like sarcasm, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, I never said anything so definite or bold |
It was not sarcasm and the apologies were issued.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | Anyway, this is my last post on this subject, as I firstly don’t have the time to keep on justifying my views, and secondly I shouldn’t have to. |
I agree that you shouldn't have to. I am not compelling you to do so. I agree that it is time consuming!
All the best |
I’ll give you a quick reply as I’m practicing at the moment. One moment you are asking me if it is the same mouthpiece, then you are saying that you cannot form many conclusions with two mouthpieces.
I’m not conducting a science experiment, I’m talking about taking one mouthpiece, and experimenting with sleeves on it. I’m also talking about experimenting with the James R New gap modulator.
This is what I found:
All insert 24mm:
2005 Bach 3C x 2
2008 Bach 1 1 1/2C
James R New 6 sleeve
Setting gap modulator to insert 24mm
Plays quite stuffy and even sounds quite stuffy.
Experimenting with gap modulator. Suddenly around 24.75mm-25.25mm, the trumpet suddenly came alive in my hands in terms of response with a more open blow and more resonant sound.
All insert 25mm:
Yamaha 16C4
Yamaha 11C4-7C
James R New 6.5 sleeve
Gap modulator set to insert 25mm
My conclusion from experimenting with sleeves is that my Xeno II plays best with an insertion amount of around 25mm, which is the insertion amount of my Yamaha mouthpieces and not my Bach mouthpieces.
This is for me, with my mouthpieces on my Yamaha Xeno II trumpet. I personally feel that it probably is not a coincidence.
I have done nothing wrong by experimenting with the gap modulator or sleeves, and finding that I prefer around 1mm less gap than I get with my 2005 Bach 3C, and the gap that I get with a Yamaha mouthpiece.
I never did say anymore than this. I choose to play a copy of a Bach 3C not a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece, so I’m hardly saying that you need to play a Yamaha mouthpiece on a Yamaha trumpet.
Let’s strike a good natured deal, you scientifically prove that you have to try 20 Bachs from 2003 to 2023 to find a really good one, and I’ll scientifically prove that a Yamaha Xeno II trumpet will likely play better with a modern Bach mouthpiece, if you reduce the gap around a mm.
Take care and best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
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Cornets:
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 11:39 am Post subject: |
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As a quick addition, this is dialling the gap in with sleeves not a science experiment. I don’t like a Bach mouthpiece or James R New 6 sleeve on my Xeno II, that both insert 24mm, but I do like a Yamaha mouthpiece, or James R New 6.5 sleeve, that both insert 25mm.
Since I am using the James R New 6 sleeve on the same mouthpiece as the James R New 6.5 sleeve, I conclude that it is the change in gap which is making me like the 6.5 sleeve and not the 6 sleeve.
Can we now put this to rest please.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1783
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | I’ll give you a quick reply as I’m practicing at the moment. One moment you are asking me if it is the same mouthpiece, then you are saying that you cannot form many conclusions with two mouthpieces. |
Not quite. FIRST I made the statement THEN I asked if you used the same mouthpiece. You said you did, therefore you have better data to work from. .
Kerouac tried a Yamaha 17B4 against his GR. The statement was on that basis (i.e., Yamaha vs. other) which is why I made my initial statement in response to your words: "this for me was with a gap that replicated that of a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece."
| Louise Finch wrote: | | I prefer around 1mm less gap than I get with my 2005 Bach 3C, and the gap that I get with a Yamaha mouthpiece. |
This was my point. It is a preference. But Kerouac is attempting to make a definitive statement. I believed you were concurring with him. I have realized you are not. Therefore apologies.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | Let’s strike a good natured deal, you scientifically prove that you have to try 20 Bachs from 2003 to 2023 to find a really good one and I’ll scientifically prove that a Yamaha Xeno II trumpet will likely play better with a modern Bach mouthpiece, if you reduce the gap around a mm. |
I do love a good "gotcha" moment. However, I do not believe this is one of them.
My logic applied to the gap situation is the same logic I applied (I think) to "play 20." The basis for both is "the degree of variability thwarts the conclusive." There is simply too much variability to say "all bach mouthpieces will play better in a yamaha if you reduce the gap 1mm." Once we get to the "close enough" point, it becomes a little more "art/preference" that anything more conclusive (which was my point). The same goes for Bach trumpets (lol); simply too variable to ensure you have found an adequate horn. It's like that famous riddle: you have 50 socks in a drawer in 3 different colors (not paired, all loose). Your eyes are closed, how many socks would you have to grab to ensure you have a pair of the same color? (Answer is 4). Now, you could have grabbed a pair in two, just as I said "you could find a great bach on your first try." But with Bach, because of variability, you have to keep grabbing until you can be "sure." Where that number lies, in my opinion, from mid 2000s to 2023, is around 20 (to go home "sure of yourself"). Nowadays, probably closer to 5.
I have played so many unplayable bachs in the previous era, which is where my opinions come from.
You do not have to respond if you do not wish, save your time! |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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So, abontrumpet, I'm kind'a lost in all the quibbling. Are you saying it's better to use a Yamaha mouthpiece on Yamaha horns? Thanks.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | | I’ll give you a quick reply as I’m practicing at the moment. One moment you are asking me if it is the same mouthpiece, then you are saying that you cannot form many conclusions with two mouthpieces. |
Not quite. FIRST I made the statement THEN I asked if you used the same mouthpiece. You said you did, therefore you have better data to work from.
Ok.
Kerouac tried a Yamaha 17B4 against his GR. The statement was on that basis (i.e., Yamaha vs. other) which is why I made my initial statement in response to your words: "this for me was with a gap that replicated that of a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece."
| Louise Finch wrote: | | I prefer around 1mm less gap than I get with my 2005 Bach 3C, and the gap that I get with a Yamaha mouthpiece. |
This was my point. It is a preference. But Kerouac is attempting to make a definitive statement. I believed you were concurring with him. I have realized you are not. Therefore apologies.
There is truly no need to apologise. I was adding my experiences to the mix, rather than agreeing or disagreeing with anyone.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | Let’s strike a good natured deal, you scientifically prove that you have to try 20 Bachs from 2003 to 2023 to find a really good one and I’ll scientifically prove that a Yamaha Xeno II trumpet will likely play better with a modern Bach mouthpiece, if you reduce the gap around a mm. |
I do love a good "gotcha" moment. However, I do not believe this is one of them.
My logic applied to the gap situation is the same logic I applied (I think) to "play 20." The basis for both is "the degree of variability thwarts the conclusive." There is simply too much variability to say "all bach mouthpieces will play better in a yamaha if you reduce the gap 1mm."
I'd never say that. Bach mouthpieces are firstly too variable. My amateur repair tech colleague measured the insertion amount of his Bach 1 1/2C in the receiver of my Bach 37, and it inserted 26.23mm (he has more refined measuring tools than me). The 2005 Bach 3C I gave him to measure, inserted 23.75mm in my Bach 37, whereas I've measured my 1994 Bach 7C as inserting 25mm. That is some variation!
All that I'm saying is that in my personal opinion, at least with me on the end, that Bach mouthpieces that insert less (which appear to be the more modern ones), may very well benefit from being sleeved to insert further. I'm suggesting around 1mm further, as from the ones that I've measured, more modern Bach mouthpieces insert around 1mm less than Yamaha mouthpieces (this is of course on average). My opinion is that if your Bach mouthpiece inserts 1mm less than the supplied Yamaha mouthpiece, and you feel that the blow is stuffy, reducing the gap by this 1mm may likely be an improvement.
I'm not however going to say that this will work for everyone with all Bach mouthpieces and all Yamaha trumpets. That would be foolish.
Once we get to the "close enough" point, it becomes a little more "art/preference" that anything more conclusive (which was my point).
Yes, definitely.
The same goes for Bach trumpets (lol); simply too variable to ensure you have found an adequate horn. It's like that famous riddle: you have 50 socks in a drawer in 3 different colors (not paired, all loose). Your eyes are closed, how many socks would you have to grab to ensure you have a pair of the same color? (Answer is 4). Now, you could have grabbed a pair in two, just as I said "you could find a great bach on your first try." But with Bach, because of variability, you have to keep grabbing until you can be "sure." Where that number lies, in my opinion, from mid 2000s to 2023, is around 20 (to go home "sure of yourself"). Nowadays, probably closer to 5.
I have played so many unplayable bachs in the previous era, which is where my opinions come from.
I do truly understand where you are coming from. Funnily enough from mid 2000s is when I first noticed the Bach shanks inserting around 1mm less.
Maybe something happened around that time. I'm only jokng lol.
You do not have to respond if you do not wish, save your time!
It's fine, I've finished practising now lol. And please feel free to save your time also.
Take care and best wishes
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1783
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | So, abontrumpet, I'm kind'a lost in all the quibbling. Are you saying it's better to use a Yamaha mouthpiece on Yamaha horns? Thanks. |
If this was meant to be funny, I did laugh. If it was not: no, I'm saying use whatever you want and try a few different things, especially if changing horns. I'm arguing against any universal statements. |
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kerouack
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Joined: 16 Nov 2001
Posts: 348
Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems abontrumpet agrees that a yamaha mpc is a better fit for a Yamaha trumpet than a Bach mpc, with the exception in case you want to buy 37 Bach mpcs to find the right one. |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1783
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kerouack wrote: | | It seems abontrumpet agrees that a yamaha mpc is a better fit for a Yamaha trumpet than a Bach mpc, with the exception in case you want to buy 37 Bach mpcs to find the right one. |
You should try about 37 Bach mpcs. But no, read my response to kehaulani |
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kerouack
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Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think is good to have a reliable base ground to start.
I think that base ground can be playing a Yamaha mpc with a Yamaha horn.
And starting from there , having a good match, see if any other combination you like it better, if you can find it.
Remember there are A LOT of TH readers who are playing the instrument less than 5 years.
Also not everyone can try everything . I live in barcelona , second biggest city in Spain. Shops are weird. I can not even try a mpc without first buying it. |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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abontrumpet - I was serious and thanks.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| kerouack wrote: | I think is good to have a reliable base ground to start.
I think that base ground can be playing a Yamaha mpc with a Yamaha horn.
And starting from there , having a good match, see if any other combination you like it better, if you can find it.
Remember there are A LOT of TH readers who are playing the instrument less than 5 years.
Also not everyone can try everything . I live in barcelona , second biggest city in Spain. Shops are weird. I can not even try a mpc without first buying it. |
I totally agree with this idea. I think that Yamaha makes reliable instruments and makes consistent mouthpieces. Using a yamaha mouthpiece as something that will "work" for a large number of people, will be consistent from mouthpiece to mouthpiece, and be readily available is an amazing thing! I disagree that you cannot do the same thing with another brand just because it doesn't have the same "brand" as the horn.
Yamaha is a great place to start (and even end). But yes, I know in Europe it can be hard to get your hands on "everything." |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 11:16 am Post subject: |
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FWIW: I did a comparison of every bach and yamaha mouthpiece I had on hand into my yamaha 9445.
A couple Bachs inserted very close to yamaha but many fall short of a standard yamaha blank (by roughly 1mm)
However, artist model Yamaha mouthpieces (bobby shew and tom hootenx2) insert like Bachs (falling short by 1mm).
So, it stands to reason, that artists may think it is useful for the mouthpiece to insert like a bach. Which stands to reason that my logic was correct: there is no definitive gap once you get to a certain range. Preference.
I hope this helps ease the minds who are hung up on this. |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | FWIW: I did a comparison of every bach and yamaha mouthpiece I had on hand into my yamaha 9445.
A couple Bachs inserted very close to yamaha but many fall short of a standard yamaha blank (by roughly 1mm)
Yes. I'm at least glad that we agree lol that Yamaha mouthpieces generally insert 1mm further than Bach mouthpieces.
However, artist model Yamaha mouthpieces (bobby shew and tom hootenx2) insert like Bachs (falling short by 1mm).
So, it stands to reason, that artists may think it is useful for the mouthpiece to insert like a bach.
Quite possibly, but I think that to form any definite conclusions you would have to measure the artist model Yamaha mouthpiece in the receiver of the Yamaha trumpet model that the particular artist uses.
What I mean is that you could conclude that Bobby Shew likes a gap of around whatever his Shew mouthpiece gives on your Yamaha 9445, only for it to turn out that the Shew Jazz trumpet gaps completely differently to the 9445, and this is factored into the design of the mouthpiece.
e.g.
| hose wrote: | In the last five years I have bought two new Yamaha's. They came with different Yamaha mpcs. The "classical" Xeno came with a 16C4. The 6535RC (commercial) came with a 14B4. With calipers I measured [b]gaps of several shanks in these two Yamaha models.
The more "classical" Xeno gap with the Pickett shanks is .130. (.140 with a GR.) The 6535RC (commercial) gap with the Pickett shank is .090. A GR is .100. I believe Yamaha adjusts their receivers to the style for what the horn's generally intended use. Larger gap for classical playing and smaller gap for commercial use. |
[/b]
Which stands to reason that my logic was correct: there is no definitive gap once you get to a certain range. Preference.
I hope this helps ease the minds who are hung up on this.
My mind is perfectly easy. On a Yamaha Xeno II, I prefer my copy of a Bach 3C sleeved to insert the extra 1mm that a Yamaha mouthpiece inserts. I don't much care what someone else likes.
Another thing is to consider is that if you play a Yamaha trumpet and Yamaha mouthpiece, you will generally get a 1mm greater insertion amount with this combination, than if you played a Bach mouthpiece on a Yamaha trumpet. Yamaha must be happy enough with this, or they would make their trumpet mouthpieces 1mm shorter.
All the best
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3308
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | ... Which stands to reason that my logic was correct: there is no definitive gap once you get to a certain range. Preference. ...
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I don't understand what you mean by
"there is no definitive gap once you get to a certain range".
At what 'range' would there be no definitive gap?
My thinking about the Yamaha artist series mpc inserting similar to Bach (if that is by design), is that perhaps Yamaha believes that customers for those mouthpieces would be testing them in trumpets that were already 'setup' (i.e. gap) for Bach insertion amount.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | abontrumpet wrote: | | ... Which stands to reason that my logic was correct: there is no definitive gap once you get to a certain range. Preference. ...
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I don't understand what you mean by
"there is no definitive gap once you get to a certain range".
At what 'range' would there be no definitive gap?
My thinking about the Yamaha artist series mpc inserting similar to Bach (if that is by design), is that perhaps Yamaha believes that customers for those mouthpieces would be testing them in trumpets that were already 'setup' (i.e. gap) for Bach insertion amount. |
That sounds reasonable to me.
Yamaha supply the Xeno II with a Yamaha 16C4. Although you can buy a Yamaha 16C4, I think that people are more likely to buy a Bobby Shew lead/jazz mouthpiece or a Tom Hooten mouthpiece as an additional mouthpiece, as people would probably more likely buy a Bach 1 1/2 C than a Yamaha 16C4, simply because of the popularity/availability of Bach mouthpieces.
Take care and best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1783
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | abontrumpet wrote: | | ... Which stands to reason that my logic was correct: there is no definitive gap once you get to a certain range. Preference. ...
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I don't understand what you mean by
"there is no definitive gap once you get to a certain range".
At what 'range' would there be no definitive gap? |
Ah, I see where my sentence isn't clear. It should have said "within an acceptable gap range, preference exists." Preference vs. Rule. There is an acceptable gap range with which a trumpet can be played well. Some will prefer the smaller end some might prefer the larger.
| JayKosta wrote: | | My thinking about the Yamaha artist series mpc inserting similar to Bach (if that is by design), is that perhaps Yamaha believes that customers for those mouthpieces would be testing them in trumpets that were already 'setup' (i.e. gap) for Bach insertion amount. |
Tom Hooten plays Yamaha. I would say the majority of US orchestral players are playing Yamaha at this point. Not quite sure I have understood your point though.
| Louise Finch wrote: | | Quite possibly, but I think that to form any definite conclusions you would have to measure the artist model Yamaha mouthpiece in the receiver of the Yamaha trumpet model that the particular artist uses. |
Tom Hooten plays the Yamaha artist model leadpipes.
Again, I'm not trying to say anything except: try some mouthpieces and see what you like. There is no reason to not consider a bach mouthpiece if you play a yamaha because plenty of artists do. |
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