Monette mouthpiece with gap adjustment sleeves...

kevin_soda

Monette website claims that any alteration to their mouthpieces destroys the balance and playing characteristics of the piece. Has anyone ever tried converting one of their pieces to accept gap adjustment sleeves? I don't expect it would diminish the quality but only change the way it works with a particular instrument. It shouldn't change the response or feel because you're not making significant changes to the mass or any changes internally. Thoughts or experience?
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Kevin

oxleyk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4181

I wouldn't. If you feel a change is needed then have the receiver adjusted. Besides, a Prana would be nearly impossible to mill for sleeves. Only the classic shanks would be suitable.

Personally, the gap is about 1/8th-inch larger with my Monettes and I don't notice any difference compared to conventional pieces. The sound and intonation are better with the Monettes.

Kent

Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969

A fine principal symphony player friend of mine had switched to Monette mouthpieces and was finding the pitch with his Kanstul C somewhat worse than before. I measured the end gap and it was quite a bit more than the 1/8th" considered optimum on that horn and we decided to re-position the receiver to bring it to an 1/8th". The results were very good and later on he purchased a Bach Philly C and the same mouthpiece worked very well with the stock receiver. I certainly don't know why but perhaps someone in TH land can offer an explanation.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

kevin_soda · Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:24 pm Post subject:

I was hoping someone might have tried it already but it doesn't seem like it. So here's what made me even think about it in the first place: I currently play on a Monette XLT B4S S2. It's a great all around mouthpiece and I really enjoy it but I recently dropped it (first time I've dropped a mouthpiece in, like, a decade) and it got slightly knicked on the rim (totally still playable) and the end of the shank is just a little out of round. It's not a Prana and there seems to be plenty of material to work with.

Furthermore, when I measured the gap before (crudely as it may have been) it appeared to be approximately 1/4". I don't think I want to adjust the receiver because I don't want it to prevent me from using other equipment in the future. I also think it plays fine now even with the massive gap. I'm interested in the possibility of experimenting and if I buy a new mouthpiece it seems a pretty safe bet. Thoughts?
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Kevin

jaysonr · Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject:

I'd call the shop and see if they'd just fix it for you.
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Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2

kevin_soda · Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject:

That sounds reasonable.
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Kevin

hose · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:19 am Post subject:

About ten yeas ago I dropped a new Monette STC bought from Dillons. Banged it up pretty bad. After a few weeks went by, on a whim, I called Monette (Dean Comely was the mpc man then) and told him my sad story. He told me to send it to them as they might be able to repair it. I did and a few days later he called to tell me my damaged mpc was now a "paper wt". Unrepairable. But he was sending me a "like new" demo of the size I damaged and also a Prana demo! Unbelievable!

trompette229 · Veteran Member Joined: 21 Mar 2016 Posts: 207

kevin_soda · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:14 am Post subject:

His website looks like he does good work. Has anybody bought work from Frost Custom Brass? I like the idea of a threaded sleeve. It seems more precise.
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Kevin

Vince.Green · Veteran Member Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 150

He is first rate. I own a few of his pieces and he's done many threadings for me. He seems to get universally great reviews.

B. Scriver · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:11 am Post subject:

From GR:

Something to consider. If you look at your specific Monette mouthpiece note the thickness of the exit wall. The older ones were much thicker than the status quo of Bach and others.

Many players have a pre-conceived gap number in mind. This is a different design so that pre-conceived number may not work. Most Monette mpcs with that thicker exit wall do play better at about 1/4" gap in a conventional Bach or similar design due to the mouthpiece design.

Some other mpc designs have a similar wall thickness and need a greater gap. Some have a thinner exit wall thickness and require a smaller gap. Take the Bach 117 bb, very thin exit wall, you don't need as much gap.

I would not sleeve a Monette, rather I would have a receiver made or fitted, have it soldered on the horn. Keep the original if you want to go back. Charlie Melk can do this as he has receivers made to specs and fitting tools and ability.

Better yet, spend some time with an experienced tech that has leadpipes pre-assembled with different gaps and venturi for testing. Charlie Melk can do this and it goes pretty quickly.

www.grmouthpieces.com

kevin_soda · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:50 am Post subject:

That sounds pretty conclusive. I had never considered a custom receiver but I am still wary of altering the horn as it's considerably more expensive albeit less permanent... I think I better talk to Monette before I start rolling dice or trying to "fix" things that aren't "broken." Thanks for all the input everyone.
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Kevin

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:08 am Post subject:

There is also the AGR (adjustable gap receiver) approach.
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

Danbassin · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:22 am Post subject:

BJones · Regular Member Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Posts: 74 Location: Oz

Hey Kevin, how's life? Glad to see you're sticking with the trumpet thing!

Go ahead and convert it to sleeves, but ONLY if there is a sleeve size available where you can set the gap where it is right now. You'll have to get Frost to measure it for you. Skip adjusting the receiver... Lots of people on here seem to think that's a walk in the park, but once it's set, it's set. It's another $60 of repair work to go back, and there is no testing different gaps. Seems easier to go the sleeve route for adjustability and testing purposes.

I'm very skeptical of all the fear-mongering from mouthpiece manufacturers. "ANY ALTERATION WILL DESTROY THE MOUTHPIECE! (But we'll gladly sell you another one that will fix the problem for $250!!)" Seems like a great policy to hold if you want to sell more mouthpieces at prices that are already quite high. (The brass stock for mouthpieces would be maximum $12-15 per mouthpiece, for perspective.)

To be fair, some alterations will destroy Monette/Reeves/GR mouthpieces. Drilling the throats or enlarging the backbores in these is a very bad idea. But conversion to sleeves? At that point, you're adjusting the mouthpiece's fit in the horn, not the internal design. If you set the gap where it is now, it will at least be AS GOOD as it was. If you find a gap that works better, then it will improve. That's a neutral or better outcome, so go for it.

Matt Frost is great, and does quality work. His threaded sleeves seem to be a design improvement over Reeves' sleeves. I have some friends from all over the US use him, and they love him. And he's right in the Roosevelt area! A bit of a drive from your house, but definitely close and you can stop by his place. Just take Hwy 99.

Cheers!

Brandon
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PhD Candidate in Performance
University of Melbourne
Bach Bb/C, Schilke Eb/Picc

kevin_soda · Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:45 am Post subject:

Thanks, B! I'm stuck with trumpet for better or worse... I'm definitely gonna check out Frost but for the Monette I'll talk to them about repair first. I do still share your skepticism on the fear-mongering but I also understand that we like to blame the equipment and manufacturers have to deal with that enough already without us modifying their products (of course, their marketing doesn't help because the catch phrase "get a good teacher" doesn't sell equipment as fast...) It also seems like these high end manufacturers are aware of the process and if they thought it was a good idea they would make them that way in the first place. Has anyone ever seen a sleeve system on an expensive mouthpeice other than Reeves'?
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Kevin

BJones · Regular Member Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Posts: 74 Location: Oz

Re: your trumpet, as long as:

The 4th line D isn't horrifically flat, and
The 4th space E/Eb isn't horrifically flat, and
The G on top of the staff isn't horrifically sharp, and
The valves are decent,

stick with it. The above issues are hard (but not impossible) to fix, and could mess with your development as a player. Your Monette piece should help keep the top C in-tune, but you'll have to work extra hard at clear articulations and make staying relaxed a priority.

Edited: Monette might repair your piece, so call/email them. Or they might swap you with a like-new demo, as above.
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PhD Candidate in Performance
University of Melbourne
Bach Bb/C, Schilke Eb/Picc

GordonH · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:53 am Post subject:

I got a good teacher once and his first comment was that I needed a better mouthpiece!
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

Danbassin · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:29 am Post subject:

GordonH · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:49 am Post subject:

Thanks for that. My understanding was that Dave designs his mouthpieces to work with the optimal gap on a standard Bach receiver set up for the specific mouthpiece in question. So some will have bigger gaps and some smaller. I suspect the larger gap is to free up or tighten some slots.

Disclaimer: I don't play Monette trumpets or mouthpieces any more, but I did prior to my divorce...
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM