View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9076 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:47 pm Post subject: The Committee hype |
|
|
There's a long thread, one of many, talking about the worth of the Committee. This is not about that. But that thread reminded me of something else and that is just how much about the Committee is based on it's uniqueness and superiority and how much is just nostalgia and a way of rubbing elbows with the legends. It seems to me that, overwhelmingly, the horn of choice of TH-ers is not the Committee but some other horn.
I, myself, have had three Committees, all expertly overhauled and they have all been restored beautifully. Yet, I seem to get rid of one in favour of different brand horns. But sooner or later, I get another Committee and repeat the cycle starts all over again. I would probably be fooling myself to think this vicious cycle has ended.
It gives me a warm fuzzy to have that connection to Miles et al. To pretend that I am in the company of the jazz deities. But, OTOH I'm not sure I can't get the sound in my head with a number of other horns and they're newer and usually have warranties.
So I close with this question, again. Why do so many TH-ers play Bachs, Getzens, Yamahas, Schilkes etc. and not Committees if they're so special? Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 653
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Martin Committees are fun horns to play and to "try out", although most of them are old enough to have some degree of mechanical issue. For most professionals who don't have a solo career, they have to be at the top of their game and ready to play a variety of music every day, which means playing in tune (and "in tone" for the genre they're playing), matching with their section or with their bandmates, and that their horn has to stay in playing shape while on the road. If you've got a vintage committee, intonation is poor compared to modern horns, they are very easily damaged due to the bracing design, the tone is not exactly acceptable for classical music, and most people don't like medium bore horns anymore. Committees are great for jazz and even lead playing if you have one with good valves, but modern horns will play circles around them, and you can count on the intonation of a Bach/Schilke/Yamaha/etc. to be spot on.
One other factor that might factor in is comfort. The Committee has a very narrow wrap, and the valves are very close to your face, so you have to have a sort of "closed" body position just to hold one. If I were playing sessions for 4-5 hours a day, I wouldn't want to hold something that makes my hands feel pinched or has my arms situated at an uncomfortable angle. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SMrtn Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014 Posts: 367 Location: Spain
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's all about some sort of legendary tone. At least that's how I see these issues.
Sax players mostly chase after Selmer Mark VI's or Super Balanced Action. Guitar players lust after a '56 Les Paul or Strat. String players' north star is usually a Guaneri or if they had the money, a Strad. Every section of instruments has its Martin Committee. It's interesting for the fact that all these instruments belong to some sort of golden period of design. Personally speaking, I don't quite understand the attraction. I always thought it was about how you play, and not what you play, although a good instrument helps, obviously, and that's the point I think - a good instrument is not necessarily a vintage instrument.
But the elusive tone fairy will continue to call musicians like some sort of siren song. Not to their death mind you, but to their eternal dissatisfaction. If I were a guitar player, I'd try and stick to the adage that tone is in your fingers.
YMMV. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
EdMann Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2482 Location: The Big Valley
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The notion that older horns, like Martins, that were designed with specifications that were the standard of the day are no longer the standard of the day, is not the issue. Everything evolves, but the great irony is that the Bach design, based upon turn of the century Bessons, is not far a field from the original design. And sorry, as much as I love the Bach sound, the intonation of every Martin I own is superior with few exceptions. And you cannot manufacture a Martin with the brass that made that sound ring in the first place. It's a sound from then.
I was always taught that sound is the key, and the sound I like to have is enhanced by a professionally manufactured horn, nearly regardless of make. The siren indeed.
ed |
|
Back to top |
|
|
A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5231 Location: ca.
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For me, I've owned 3 over the years, different times. It's the horn I love to play by myself, to express.... Sit in a corner and noodle around. They bend notes so well, different "color" to the sound. Playing blues as you are in that mood. That is what I love about them. _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1022 Location: East Asia
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: The Committee hype |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | So I close with this question, again. Why do so many TH-ers play Bachs, Getzens, Yamahas, Schilkes etc. and not Committees if they're so special? Thanks. |
Honestly, I would love to have a committee if I could find one locally, at a good price, and in good playing condition. I think the answer to your question is primarily the rarity of the instrument. Also, because it's rare, it's also a choice you have to explain if you are playing in ensembles. EdMann's comment that horns have evolved in another direction makes it harder to justify rare instruments.
I like ANAMendez's comment that they're fun to play. I'd love to have one. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3644 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: The Committee hype |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | There's a long thread, one of many, talking about the worth of the Committee. This is not about that. But that thread reminded me of something else and that is just how much about the Committee is based on it's uniqueness and superiority and how much is just nostalgia and a way of rubbing elbows with the legends. It seems to me that, overwhelmingly, the horn of choice of TH-ers is not the Committee but some other horn.
I, myself, have had three Committees, all expertly overhauled and they have all been restored beautifully. Yet, I seem to get rid of one in favour of different brand horns. But sooner or later, I get another Committee and repeat the cycle starts all over again. I would probably be fooling myself to think this vicious cycle has ended.
It gives me a warm fuzzy to have that connection to Miles et al. To pretend that I am in the company of the jazz deities. But, OTOH I'm not sure I can't get the sound in my head with a number of other horns and they're newer and usually have warranties.
So I close with this question, again. Why do so many TH-ers play Bachs, Getzens, Yamahas, Schilkes etc. and not Committees if they're so special? Thanks. |
It's an honest question you ask, and I can tell you from playing with people in sections w/Committees, well, the scale is different. I notice it and it's difficult to stay in tune with. Maybe for soloists it doesn't matter as much but...
... _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9076 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Great, thoughtful answers. Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
|
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
After 50 years of the horn and mouthpiece game, I've come to the following conclusion. If you want to buy a new horn, find a trusted seller (Trent Austin, Josh Landress, et al), go their store and have them select several horns for you to try. Here's the kicker, make sure they don't tell you what any of them are! When trying the horns all kinds of different material should be played - basic exercises, etudes, experts, jazz play alongs, etc. And these should be done over several hours with breaks. Then a long lunch break should be taken and then you should revisit each of the horns. Again, AT NO TIME should you have ANY INKLING of what horn it is you're playing.
Take the horn that you like the most and feels most comfortable.
Keith |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2457
|
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
khedger wrote: | After 50 years of the horn and mouthpiece game, I've come to the following conclusion. If you want to buy a new horn, find a trusted seller (Trent Austin, Josh Landress, et al), go their store and have them select several horns for you to try. Here's the kicker, make sure they don't tell you what any of them are! When trying the horns all kinds of different material should be played - basic exercises, etudes, experts, jazz play alongs, etc. And these should be done over several hours with breaks. Then a long lunch break should be taken and then you should revisit each of the horns. Again, AT NO TIME should you have ANY INKLING of what horn it is you're playing.
Take the horn that you like the most and feels most comfortable.
Keith |
This is the best advice ever on this forum. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1410 Location: Georgia
|
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:08 am Post subject: Re: The Committee hype |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: |
So I close with this question, again. Why do so many TH-ers play Bachs, Getzens, Yamahas, Schilkes etc. and not Committees if they're so special? Thanks. |
I play with a small combo: Sax, guitar, bass, keys, drums, and me. Of my >20 trumpets, I like my 1945 Committee best for that.
I also sometimes play in a church orch, and occasionally in a concert band.
I like my Bach-like Blackburn best for that.
So, if I'm the only trumpet and can do what I want, the Committee is great. _________________ Craig Mitchell |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12679 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
khedger wrote: | After 50 years of the horn and mouthpiece game, I've come to the following conclusion. If you want to buy a new horn, find a trusted seller (Trent Austin, Josh Landress, et al), go their store and have them select several horns for you to try. Here's the kicker, make sure they don't tell you what any of them are! When trying the horns all kinds of different material should be played - basic exercises, etudes, experts, jazz play alongs, etc. And these should be done over several hours with breaks. Then a long lunch break should be taken and then you should revisit each of the horns. Again, AT NO TIME should you have ANY INKLING of what horn it is you're playing.
Take the horn that you like the most and feels most comfortable.
Keith |
There was a violin shop back in the 70’s that my sister purchased a violin from. The owner had a similar procedure. The potential buyer would consult with the owner and the owner would select a couple of instruments to try out. The customers were not informed on price or provenance until after their decision. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3622
|
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Martin Committees are popular for the same reason everybody wants a "57 Chevy, and the price is commensurate with that demand. _________________ C. G. Conn 60B Super Connstellation
Getzen 800S Eterna cornet
Bach 5C (Jens Lindemann is right)
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
|
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I had the chance to spend a few weeks with a 1956 Deluxe large bore Committee. It was in good shape and after I gave it a full cleaning and oiled the pistons with Flip Oakes valve oil, it was mechanically terrific. I also had a Kanstul 1603 on hand at the same time.
I like the sound of the Large bore Committee. It is unique. I like how it plays. Coming from the Benge side of things, its slotting felt natural to me. It does put one in that "closed" body position one poster mentioned above, but I didn't mind.
What I absolutely love about the Martin is its design and aesthetics. It is simply the most elegant trumpet I've come across and, IMO, makes every other horn look like so much hardware plumbing. It's the extremely slender view line down the valve buttons to the bell, the gorgeous way the valve ports allow the tubing to tuck in tightly, and it's those classically long, shallow-angled braces. I'm no fan of the adjustable finger ring or the trombone water keys, but they help make up that signature look.
Would I buy one? Yes, if I had the extra money and played more. But, in the end, when I recorded my Wild Thing, the 1603 and the Committee for comparison I found that I preferred the sound I get from the Wild Thing. It has more richness and interest, if not that particularly vintage Martin sound. It has the WT bottom range nothing can touch and its greater dynamic range, too. Plus, mine has one of only two copper tuning slides ever made that adds that little extra bit of jewel quality other WTs don't have. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
|
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: The Committee hype |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | So I close with this question, again. Why do so many TH-ers play Bachs, Getzens, Yamahas, Schilkes etc. and not Committees if they're so special? Thanks. |
Most people on TH probably own only one trumpet which means it has to do everything for them. A vintage Martin Committee isn't an "everything" horn so it's not going to be a logical choice for someone to do everything they do.
Speaking only for myself, the Martin Committee is THE horn for jazz improvisation if you're playing ballads, bebop, hard bop or cool jazz. So, it is a very specialized trumpet for accomplished jazz improvisational artists. That's why I usually play my 1953 Martin Committee large bore in those situations which are, for me, 100% of the situations I play.
Certainly I could play any of the 50+ horns in my collection for jazz improvisation but I play the Martin Committee primarily because of it's unique sound, connection to the great players who played the Martin Committee and the coolness factor in playing one. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
|
Back to top |
|
|
blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
|
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:04 pm Post subject: Committee hype |
|
|
I have been fascinated with the Committee for a few years only. Yes, there is a mystique with them, but don't we have many, many players in here that will tell you the same thing about Bach? For sure. Years ago I did what OldSchoolEuph did and went to the music store where I had moved and kind of had the Bach in mind. I tried out two new Bachs and then he pulled this Benge off the shelf. The Bachs were great, but it seemed the Benge would blow doors down and crack concrete if I poured the coals to it. Then, the show owner got another Bach off the shelf that was very slightly used but a different bell, if I remember. This was also great, but I could still hear and feel the Benge 5x. That was the horn I took home that day and I never regretted it. It did mean I had to leave at least one other great horn behind, but all the money I had was all I had. Give a bunch of them a try and "do" pick the one you are comfortable with. You will have your name on the horn, too, and the stuff you play will very much satisfy you. _________________ "There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
|
Back to top |
|
|
A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5231 Location: ca.
|
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Slightly off topic but....
Many years ago I sought out a trumpet some years after my Olds Mendez was stolen . I had gotten out of the Navy and was living in a temporary place, working a night shift. I came home one chilly morning and found my seabag and my Mendez dad bought me when I made 1st chair in school was gone. So upset I gave up playing for some years. I did buy a silver Olds Super some time later to do a friends wedding. A few years later I decided to get serious again, so I took the Super to a music shop and tried out some "expensive" horns. I remember a strad, I played it and several others against the Super.I walked out with the Super. Nothing compared to the sound and the clear tone and power. It had a sticky 2nd valve which bugged me for years. I had Charlie Melk fix it some time later.
The point...
I found out later those Olds Silver Supers from that time period were monsters.(1969-71) I sold that horn to a power player in Australia some years ago (Maynard type player) He was over the moon....
You just never know what horn will light your fire. _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Last edited by A.N.A.Mendez on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
|
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Committee hype |
|
|
blbaumgarn wrote: | I have been fascinated with the Committee for a few years only. Yes, there is a mystique with them, but don't we have many, many players in here that will tell you the same thing about Bach? For sure. Years ago I did what OldSchoolEuph did and went to the music store where I had moved and kind of had the Bach in mind. I tried out two new Bachs and then he pulled this Benge off the shelf. The Bachs were great, but it seemed the Benge would blow doors down and crack concrete if I poured the coals to it. Then, the show owner got another Bach off the shelf that was very slightly used but a different bell, if I remember. This was also great, but I could still hear and feel the Benge 5x. That was the horn I took home that day and I never regretted it. It did mean I had to leave at least one other great horn behind, but all the money I had was all I had. Give a bunch of them a try and "do" pick the one you are comfortable with. You will have your name on the horn, too, and the stuff you play will very much satisfy you. |
I have soooo many memories of my own 5X. I wish I'd been able to keep it. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2457
|
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
A.N.A.Mendez wrote: | Slightly off topic but....
I found out later those Olds Silver Supers from that time period were monsters.(1979-81) |
Olds was liquidated in 1979, but I am assuming you are talking about either an S-12 Super Ultrasonic (which I didn't realize was ever offered in other than lacquer - so very few were sold), or an Olds SuperStar, which also used an Ultrsonic (explosively molded) bell, had the interchangeable minimally constrictive valves, I think came standard in silver, and was top-of-the-line for Olds - and a killer commercial horn (unfortunately only built in their last few years in business).
The Super Ultrasonic seemingly was not popular (and all I have ever heard previously was how Olds fans did not like them as well as earlier Supers), while the SuperStar just wasn't around long enough to get noticed or I think would have been huge for them. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9076 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
We're getting off-topic, but speaking of Benges . . when I was at UNT, it seemed that many big band players played Benges. I was impressed, they played and sounded great but I couldn't afford one.
When I got a chance to get a new horn, I settled on a Getzen Severinsen. I called it "The Poor Man's Benge", LOL.
Imagine my surprise a couple of years later, when I sat next to a former Benge player who had played lead in the UNT One O'clock band and went on to other name bands, and he had changed horns . . to a Severinsen. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|