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CG Personal Mouthpiece


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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: CG Personal Mouthpiece Reply with quote

I've read that Claude Gordon was a big advocate for using his CG Personal Mouthpiece, or one like it (open backbore, longer cup, V shaped cup, and larger/~#22 drill size with a shorter length). Is there anything about this mouthpiece that is particularly suited to using SADP?

I put this in the CG forum instead of the mouthpiece forum because I looking for comments from the CG community.

Do you personally use a mouthpiece like this?

Do you recommend that everybody try a mouthpiece like this? If so, what piece or pieces do you recommend?

I am currently using a Curry 3C - not at all like a CG Personal Mouthpiece. Why am I using a Curry 3C? Because I have no idea what mouthpiece suits me best; the Curry 3C seems pretty middle of the road so I don't think that I can go too far wrong with it. I am making progress with SADP using this piece. However, my impression of the mouthpiece that I am using is that it might be a tad too small in diameter. Before launching on a mouthpiece safari, I thought I'd ask about the CG Personal.

Oh, yeah, Claude said "Constantly changing mouthpieces is the beginning of the end. The student should get a good mouthpiece and stay with it the rest of his playing life." Can anyone give me some advice on which mouthpiece to stick with for the rest of my playing life?

Regards,
Grits
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am no expert on the CG mouthpieces; however, the Marcinkiewicz #20 drill & #22 drill are my regular everyday mouthpieces. I love them myself; however, I am just as comfortable on a LOUD 10.5 C or a Bach Mt. Vernon 10.5 C. I am not sure of the diameter of these CG Personal pieces in terms of comparisons etc. I do favor the #20 throat. The CG Personal #20 is a BIG, DEEP mouthpiece for me as I have zero lip protrusion into the cup. This also allows me to be able to play very shallow mouthpieces.

My personal experience is that I can play mutiple mouthpieces (in one practice session) with no adverse effects. Of course, I want to stay very close to the exact inner diameter which for me is a CG Personal or 10.5C. From that point, I can play multiple depths and cup shapes.

I do like the rim and deep v cup as it suites me just fine. They are frequently sold used in the Classifieds.
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Last edited by RussellDDixon on Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:45 am; edited 4 times in total
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy I studied with for many years was a student and friend of Claude's. He told me that the regular CG is a very reasonable mouthpiece. He also told me that the CG Personal only came about very late in Claude's life, not during the peak of his career. And my teacher thought that the Personal was in many ways too extreme to suit most players. From what he said, I wouldn't expect it to work for me. I was never advised to use any of the CG mouthpieces.

I picked up a regular CG many years later just out of curiosity. And while I like the way I sounded on it I didn't find it particularly comfortable.
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jscahoy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you prefer a deep mouthpiece, you may like the CGP. I like the Marcinkewicz version a lot. I have both the #20 and #22. For me they play almost identically. I also had an old original version (narrower diameter) but didn't like it at all.
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lexluther
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a CG student I have played on all of the CG mouthpieces. The 20 is very deep. I personally didn't like my sound on either the 20 or 22. My favorite was the CG3. I have now moved to a Bach piece for comfort. I think the CG3 is probably a closer match to what yoiu are playing currently. My guess is that range will go backward on the P20. Maybe not, my teacher can hit crazy high notes on the P20.
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Benge Claude Gordon 3S mouthpiece was my regular, everyday mouthpiece for a little over 3 years leading up to when I started studying with Claude Gordon in June of 1983.

Claude had me switch very soon after that to the Kanstul made CG Personal.

I played on that piece for many years in many different pro music settings.

I found it too difficult to get a bright enough sound and eventually figured out that the inside diameter (somewhere between a Bach 3 and 5 of that era) was a bit small for me.

I still have all the original Kanstul made CG mouthpieces (Trumpet, Flugel and Cornet).

I also have collected an original Benge CG 1S and a Benge Claude Gordon Model Cornet mouthpiece. I would love to collect the trumpet version of the Benge Claude Gordon Model mouthpiece as well.

I presently switch between the Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon P-22 and the Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon 3-CG3. The inside diameters on these two match and feel slightly bigger than the original Kanstul and Benge.

As a Claude Gordon Certified Teacher, I have my students practice on a reasonably open mouthpiece while they develop. I advise them that they can better judge the appropriate mouthpiece for a given context after they have developed a reasonable amount of Wind Power, Tongue Level, K Tongue Modified and Breath Control.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Matt Graves posted:

As a Claude Gordon Certified Teacher, I have my students practice on a reasonably open mouthpiece while they develop. I advise them that they can better judge the appropriate mouthpiece for a given context after they have developed a reasonable amount of Wind Power, Tongue Level, K Tongue Modified and Breath Control.


Thanks for posting.

What do you consider an open mouthpiece to be? Would a Curry 3C qualify as an open mouthpiece?

Warm regards,
Grits
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate the input from Russell Dixon, cheidon, Lexluther and jscahoy - very helpful.

I like a deep mouthpiece. I've never tried anything larger than a #26 drill and so am curious to try one. Sounds like the Marcinkiewicz version might be worth trying.

I have no need to play in the extreme high register, other than for the purpose of completing the exercises in SADP. For me personally, I would be happy to trade off notes above F over high C for sound and flexibility (especially my lousy sounding, inconsistent and weak notes above that ).

More importantly, it seems that there isn't a consensus among CG forum participants that there is anything special about the CG personal pieces; there is nothing about it that facilitates mastering SADP exercises.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits:

I would recommend the Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon 3-CG3.

As for a Curry 3C, it most likely has a medium backbore.
If you want a mouthpiece that plays consistently in tune throughout
the registers, you would probably want to work with Mark Curry to customize
a more open throat size with a medium-large to large backbore that he recommends instead of just having the throat drilled out.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if I am naive to the subject, but how does one become a "Certified Claude Gordon teacher"? Who certifies you?
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
Sorry if I am naive to the subject, but how does one become a "Certified Claude Gordon teacher"? Who certifies you?


Claude Gordon "certified" these students himself to teach his method etc.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon 3-CG3

Grits,

I have been working through SADP with John Mohan for just over a year. During that time I have played on the following:

Bach 3C - 22 drill (high school piece)
Bobby Shew Jazz - 27 drill
Curry 3C. - 27 drill
Kanstul CG3 - 22 drill
Marcinkiewicz CG3 - 22 drill
Jim New Aurtuo MV3C clone - 24 drill

I play my high school horn, a 81' Bach 37 180ML. What I have found is that I have an easier time with high range exercises using the Marc. CG3 and better tone in the low range with the Jim New piece. I like them both. The Curry 3C. and Shew Jazz felt tight to me. I didnt have good tone on the Kanstul. The Bach was drilled out in my basement with a Black and Decker (what did I know, I was a kid).

What does that mean for you and your original question? If the mouthpiece doesnt feel right get one that does. Try a mouthpiece with an open throat, you may find that you prefer it over the stock 27 throat in most mouthpieces.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
Sorry if I am naive to the subject, but how does one become a "Certified Claude Gordon teacher"? Who certifies you?


Claude Gordon "certified" these students himself to teach his method etc.


I'll elaborate a bit. Claude created a course and taught it to a few of the guys up at the Northern California Music Shop where he gave lessons every other week. I believe Matt Graves is one of the students who personally attended that course. I think in total there were around 5 or 6 original students who took the course. It consisted of approximately 10 separate sessions, each lasting around an hour. In this course, Claude went into more detail about the "why" aspect of the assignable practice material then he normally would in his private teaching to students. He also covered common sense topics in the course regarding giving lessons, even talking about the need for proper hygiene (who wants a stinky teacher?!). At the end of the course, the students took a test, passed it, and were awarded their official certification papers.

When he gave this original course, his wife Patty videotaped the course using a shoulder mounted VHS camcorder (no tripod!). This is the sad part. I think I was still on the road with the Zerbini Shrine Circus at the time, but I had years of professional video production experience and equipment and it's just a shame that poor Patty had to hold that camcorder on her shoulder for hours, along with the resultant low quality of the tapes. Wish I could have helped out and created a professional result. But though the footage is shaky, the sound and picture quality are good enough to learn from.

In the early 1990's Claude had me make a number of copies of the original video tapes of the entire course, including a back-up set for myself. He and Patty then offered the video course to those who wanted to become "Certified Claude Gordon Teachers". The copies were not sold but sent out to people who wanted to take the course. A person would pay the fee, and Patty would send the tapes to that person to watch and study, then the person would return the tapes and take a test to show they learned and understood the material. Upon completion of all this they would be awarded with an official document saying they were certified.

I continued making copies of the tapes for Patty after Claude died and continued working with her, testing the final CG Selmer trumpets she procured from Bach/Selmer and then testing the Marcinkiewicz-produced CG Trumpet and Mouthpiece prototypes around 2004-2006. During that time, we discussed the fact that after 16 years of studying with Claude and viewing the tapes over and over when copying them (a set of which I still have, though I seem to have misplaced one of the 10 or so tapes), she and I agreed that I was more than qualified to be "certified" and she would send me the official test. But then she started having health problems and I didn't want to bug her about it. Maybe I should call myself a "Self-Certified Claude Gordon Teacher".
Cheers,

John Mohan
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Bengeguy3xmlp
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just recently purchased the Marcinkewicz CG3 and the CG Personal #20. Wow...there are amazing designs BUT...they either work for you or they don't. I have played for years all over and played lead for many big names for over two decades and have always stayed around a 3C type piece for the most part, but always looking for something better and more comfortable. There's something in the design of this cup that just works, at least for me. The CG3 is the shallowest cup in this series but not shallow by any means. It's definitely deeper than a 3C and more V shaped with a 22 throat, almost like a 1-1/2C but with a more V cup design.

I think getting rid of the C cup, allowed my air to be more efficient and my lead playing went up a few notches (but may not be for everyone). I didn't think I would like the more narrow rim but once you learn to "grip" the rim rather than cram into the face, it works and I still have double C's at the end of a hard rehearsal. The day I got the CG3, I played the strongest double D I've ever played in my life. Not saying that equipment is the save all or there's a "magic" piece out there because I don't believe that but there is something to finding the right efficient airflow for you and horn combination.

So I then got the Marcinkewicz CG Personal #20 and although darker and much deeper, it didn't "feel" deeper when played. When the air is used efficiently and not forced, the entire range from pedal C to double C was coming out strong and even all the way up and down the horn with more overtones present. I just don't feel the air backing up at all when turning up the energy as is what happens with many players (such as myself). This may not work for every player because NOTHING substitutes time on the horn and time with a good teacher, but again, equipment can make playing more efficient and in turn, make music more enjoyable to create. In my 38 years of playing trumpet and many many years traveling playing lead, I'll say this is the best set of mouthpieces I've ever played, hands down. I would highly recommend these pieces to any player from beginner to professional. There's definitely no "cheating" on these...just hard work but time and energy efficiency makes more enjoyable work on the horn. Claude was onto something with this V cup, large throat design. BTW I play on a Getzen Genesis 3003 either Gold plate or silver plate on everything I do now. Hope this helped some with questions on these pieces. If anyone has questions about it, you can email me at forcedynamics@yahoo.com.

Jon
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bengeguy3xmlp, now you've aroused my curiosity.

Let the safari begin, uh, er, again.

Thanks for the post...I think.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I would add is that Marcinkiewicz is great to work with. Such nice people and so responsive to phone calls. I have all the CG Personals and the flugel piece is very nice too. I had them make me a trumpet piece in 18 bore and a cornet piece in 16 bore. They play great and the workmanship is perfection.
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite mouthpiece is the Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon with the #20 drill ... so warm and vibrant !!!
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Bengeguy3xmlp
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the CG #20 is an incredible piece. Very warm smooth sound and can light up if needed. The CG3 is brighter but not too bright. It's my lead piece for all my lead work and out performs any mouthpiece I've played on. I've probably said this before but my search is over. These are the pieces for me. Claude was onto something with this design...very under rated mouthpieces for sure!
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illegalbugler
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
I'll elaborate a bit. Claude created a course and taught it to a few of the guys up at the Northern California Music Shop where he gave lessons every other week. I believe Matt Graves is one of the students who personally attended that course. I think in total there were around 5 or 6 original students who took the course. It consisted of approximately 10 separate sessions, each lasting around an hour. In this course, Claude went into more detail about the "why" aspect of the assignable practice material then he normally would in his private teaching to students. He also covered common sense topics in the course regarding giving lessons, even talking about the need for proper hygiene (who wants a stinky teacher?!). At the end of the course, the students took a test, passed it, and were awarded their official certification papers.

When he gave this original course, his wife Patty videotaped the course using a shoulder mounted VHS camcorder (no tripod!). This is the sad part. I think I was still on the road with the Zerbini Shrine Circus at the time, but I had years of professional video production experience and equipment and it's just a shame that poor Patty had to hold that camcorder on her shoulder for hours, along with the resultant low quality of the tapes. Wish I could have helped out and created a professional result. But though the footage is shaky, the sound and picture quality are good enough to learn from.

In the early 1990's Claude had me make a number of copies of the original video tapes of the entire course, including a back-up set for myself. He and Patty then offered the video course to those who wanted to become "Certified Claude Gordon Teachers". The copies were not sold but sent out to people who wanted to take the course. A person would pay the fee, and Patty would send the tapes to that person to watch and study, then the person would return the tapes and take a test to show they learned and understood the material. Upon completion of all this they would be awarded with an official document saying they were certified.

I continued making copies of the tapes for Patty after Claude died and continued working with her, testing the final CG Selmer trumpets she procured from Bach/Selmer and then testing the Marcinkiewicz-produced CG Trumpet and Mouthpiece prototypes around 2004-2006. During that time, we discussed the fact that after 16 years of studying with Claude and viewing the tapes over and over when copying them (a set of which I still have, though I seem to have misplaced one of the 10 or so tapes), she and I agreed that I was more than qualified to be "certified" and she would send me the official test. But then she started having health problems and I didn't want to bug her about it. Maybe I should call myself a "Self-Certified Claude Gordon Teacher".
Cheers,

John Mohan


Will these videos ever become publicly available? Would be nice to know the "method behind the madness" as it were.
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, for the plug, John!

Yes, I was in attendance at the Certification course face to face!

Bruce Haag was there as well!

I miss Claude and Bruce!

Bruce is still with us.
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