valve oil

mark125 · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:52 am Post subject:

I was just wondering if anyone knows what valve oil is generally made of.
There couldn't be that much difference between brands other than color and smell if the base ingredient is the same.
I read somewhere that lamp oil works ok as valve oil. Has anyone heard of this. I am not brave enough to have tried it .
I know some of the oil is synthetic and some of it seems to be mineral spirits.
Anyone know for sure what valve oil is made of?
Thanks
Mark

PatchesTheCat · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:08 am Post subject:

Anyone here using ProOil Hybrid? I've been using that on my Schilke and it seems to work great and lasts a long time.

West-Coast-Horns · Regular Member Joined: 17 Nov 2003 Posts: 18

I'm glad someone else knows about that Bell's Super Lube stuff, I use it too and it's gotten pretty big at where I go to school, most of all the brass players here use it and seem to like it. I was skeptical at first but it really works, I don't know what's in it, but as to another player's question, it doesn't smell like anything, and the bottles don't leak or anything!

JackD · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:44 am Post subject:

I've never really thought about valve oil. Does it make a big difference to speed / smoothness? I've always used Holton oil, seems to do the job, and lasts for ages.

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:50 am Post subject:

Hmmm... I'll put in my two cents, but note it's only worth about a 1/2 cent...

1. Hnotes -- I understand about the spray applicator. Maybe it's not a real fine mist, so wouldn't be as big a deal. Works for trombones, but... I don't have any problem sticking the oil into a bottle with a "normal" spout, was just curious.

2. Mark (gmdean) -- I have issues with applying oil from the bottom, like causing gunk that finally trickled its way down back up into the vlaves, but that's another thread (specifically, the not infrequently posted "what's the best way to oil my valves?" thread.

).

3. Back to Hnotes -- Not sure how my teacher and location relate to valve oil, but FWIW my teacher is David Zuercher, Principal of the Colorado Springs Symph... errr, Philharmonic (after reorg this year). He's a fantastic guy as a player and a person. He also seems to know just about everybody and everything. My lesson time has been very limited (near zip) for the past few months as I deal with family health issues (discussed elsewhere -- TH is a great support group). Hopefully I'll see himi more after Christmas. As in my "From" line, I live in Monument, Colorado, USA, about an hour south of Denver. My house sits at around 7500', so (as most on TH are tired of hearing) I can say "all my notes are high notes!:

4. Mark125 -- I'll take a stab at the oil issue, but I'm an EE not a chemical engineer and so expect corrections. Kerosene is the base for quite a few oils, including the Ultra Pure Lamp Oil, Al Cass Fast, and numerous others. Synthetics fall generally into two camps, I think: those more petroleum like, and those more similar to a plastic, teflon or silicon base, if that makes sense. Some add detergents, like Blue Juice, others are a special non-petrol formula which includes surfacants and other cleaners (I think BiNak, which I currently use on some horns -- Zaja on the rest -- falls into this category). Some add a teflon (or similar) suspension to help lubricate and protect. The Musichem site (www.musichem.com, I think) has a pretty good overview. Someone had posted a link to a site with pretty detailed info, but I couldn't find it with my quick search (not enough time right now), so you might poke around using the TH search function.

FWIWFM - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

oneeyedhobbit · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:15 pm Post subject:

I also really liked the ProOil Hybrid, but its so pricey! If its the only oil to perform like that I'll pay because it was wonderful, but I want to try as many different kinds as I can. Thanks for telling us about this hhnotes.

trumpetmike · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:09 pm Post subject:

hnotes - don't get too annoyed at the comments you had after your first post. There have been a few posts in the past which have been purely advertising - some people just get very wary of new posters being enthusiastic.

Great to hear that you have found a valve oil that works for you. I always used the Holton oil when I was younger - this was what my local music shop stocked and recommended. I tried some Al Cass whilst at university and changed my allegiance immediately.
I now find that Al Cass works most of the time and Blue Juice makes a good number two oil, for days when Al Cass just doesn't seem to be working.

I am also a recent convert to the Zaja oil, just trying to decide which flavour is the best

I may have to get myself a bottle of this stuff to see what it's like - if I don't like it I will use it for students!

hnotes · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:03 pm Post subject:

Don,

Sorry for my ignorance, what is the "Chicago School".

bgwbold · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:31 am Post subject:

The only thing I would add is that if you have seen the crud that can accumulate down in the bottom caps of your valves, you might want to avoid turning the horn over and squirting valve oil in the casing from the bottom. I am a Zaja user, and it is petroleum based. It comes scented and nonscented.

Mike

_Don Herman · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:40 am Post subject:

hnotes -- Check out the Chicago Forum here on TH. Basically, it's an approach to playing based upon sound models -- make the sound in your mind, then play along with it. Sounds easy, huh? Arnold Jacobs summed the whole thing up with the concept of "Song and Wind" -- song in your mind, air in motion (wind) to play it. Teaching is accomplished by leading with sound -- e.g., playing improvements handled by getting a sound concept in mind (from your teacher, favorite player, whatever) and playing to it. A mental thing.

General comment: There are quite a few threads on valve oil in the "Other Toys" Forum -- maybe this should be moved (or continued) there?
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

_gmdean · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:53 am Post subject:

Hmm, take the points about crud if you oil upside down, maybe that could lead into a "how often to bath the horn" discussion but I think I'll pass on that. Good discussion and helpful comments, thanks.
Mark

studioplaya · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:21 pm Post subject:

(Mike, unttptplyr, westcoasthorns) Where'd YOU hear about BELLS SUPER LUBE?? I think it's the greatest lubricant ever. Blue Juice, Al Cass watch out!! I got all my students and musician friends hooked on it. Where are you from originally, Mike? Are you a teacher or drum corps alumni??

Sincerely,
Steve

hnotes · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:15 pm Post subject:

Ok, so I talked to a Chemistry teacher about our oil discussion, the different types etc., and he explained a few things about oil and detergents. This is a summary of what he said. (Sorry about the spelling errors about to take place)
The purpose of valve oil is to decrease the amount of friction between the two surfaces of metal(valves and valve casing) so the valves can move freely. Oils that contain detergents might be a good idea in theory but in practice it could be a different story. The detergent molecule is hydrophyllic(affinity for water) and lipophyllic(affinity for oil). The hydrophyllic part binds itself to water and the lypophyllic part binds itself to oil. This allows the water to wash away the oil. THis is the basic principle behind cleaners and soaps. So, when we introduce valve oil into the trumpet we want it to reduce friction and stay IN THE TRUMPET!!! Valve oil companies boast about the DETERGENTS that "clean" the horn but in reallity the detergents bind the valve oil to the moisture in the horn and it is distributed away from the valves(out of the water key or dispursed throughout the tubing). What is worse, is that the oil gets washed away when playing. You can pick your horn up, valves feel good, start to play, now this introduces moisture to the system and away goes the oil and stick goes the valve. Given the nature of trumpet playing where one blows air and moisture through the horn, it takes the lubrication with it.

studioplaya,

Let me answer your questions: I marched corps in '95. I really enjoyed finals in Buffalo Ny! I thought Madison had the best show that year! I teach some students in the Dallas area as well. I heard about BSL(Bell's Super Lube) through a friend that referred me to the website. Where did you find it?
How about you? Did you march corps? Teach? How often and what do you record? I'm planning a trip out east soon. Maybe we could get together and play some high notes!!

Mike

Big City · New Member Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 1

Mike,
I have been using blue juice since I was in high school and some of my students have been using the bellssuperlube because they think the spray bottle is cool. It definitely outlasts bluejuice and works just as well if not better. I was skeptical when I heard the name, but I agree it is one of the best on the market.

Jon Arnold · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2026

I noticed in the marketplace an ad for Bell's super lube. The seller is from Denton TX. It sounds like you are trying to create interest in a product you are selling. You also wrote this post right after your place the ad in the marketplace. I don't care either way. It just sounds fishy to me.

[ This Message was edited by: Jon Arnold on 2003-11-20 09:33 ]

wardsd · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 504

LOL

Appears the first few posts on this thread were right on. He is simply peddling his product.

Anyone want to retract their apologies?

Steve

oneeyedhobbit · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:22 am Post subject:

So yeah, this becomes more ad-like by the day. Never have I seen a VALVE OIL generate enough excitement to bring in a ton of new posters, all of them taughting just how amazing this product is.

hnotes · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:44 am Post subject:

Oneeyedhobbit, Wardsd, Jon,

Along those lines, I must be trying to generate an interest in shallow mouthpieces, A high note book and a book to correct our enemy the closed throat! I don't recall seeing those on the BSL web site. I guess it is a BAD thing to do research and to try to increase knowledge. Maybe we should all be happy to wonder around in the dark and pat ourselves on the back for not seeking more knowledge in our fields of intrest.

Jon Arnold · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2026

hnotes,

The purpose of the forum is to share knowledge of things that interest us. I am not trying in any way to discredit your feelings, curiousities or interests. I just noticed that a few seconds after an ad was posted from Denton TX about the valve oil, there was a thread started about it. It just makes me question the motive for the thread. It is not my intention to give anyone a hard time. The reason I post on this site is to help fellow trumpeters based on my experiences. I hope you understand that. Best wishes to you in your future endeavors. Jon

West-Coast-Horns · Regular Member Joined: 17 Nov 2003 Posts: 18

Has anyone ever done any research into looking into, if valve oil if placed in the tubing of the horn can reduce friction for the air? An old teacher of mine used to always put a couple of drops in his leadpipe before he played. I was just wondering.