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spencerkotulski Regular Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2018 Posts: 19
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:43 am Post subject: Maggio vs Gordon book |
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For range development and becoming better in general is the Maggio book better or is the gordon book better? |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2100 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Claude Gordon built on Maggio's concept. Assuming that you are referring to Gordon's "Systematic Approach," I'd say it is better in that it is a more comprehensive approach to developing range and other important aspects of trumpet playing, but MacBeth's "Original Louis Maggio System" is effective in its own right. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Gordon is a much more inclusive book aimed at making a well-rounded player. Maggio is a set of exercises aimed mainly on range development.
Also Gordon uses auxiliary books from the standard repertory. I've used both, but not for the same purpose. The jury's not in universally, but I had great success using Maggio and using other books apart from that. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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trumpetmandan Regular Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2018 Posts: 44
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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The two methods are closely related. Both are proven and have stood the test of time. The Gordon method is more comprehensive, IMO. I think of Gordon's Systematic Approach as kind of a modernization of Maggio's teachings. Gordon builds on Maggio's pedal tone/range exercises and creates a complete fundamentals course using material from Clarke, Arban, St. Jacome, and others.
Some will debate what Gordon wrote about the physical mechanics of trumpet playing, but one of the nearly universally accepted tenets of his method is that good, consistent range is a by-product of good, consistent fundamentals. If you diligently practice the material as he instructs over an extended period of time, improvement is inevitable. |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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The Gordon books are a series of lessons that incorporate several other books, and provide a daily practice routine that develops many aspects of your playing. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9834 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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The Claude Gordon method and books are by far the best approach to use. Claude studied for almost 10 years with Herbert L. Clarke until Clarke passed away, then studied for several years with Louis Maggio. Claude took what he learned from Clarke, what he learned from Maggio and what he learned from his own experiences as a top level professional player and incorporated all of that into his teaching and his books.
In particular, Claude's book Systematic Approach to Daily Practice for Trumpet takes Maggio's basic pedal note and range exercises and creates 52 versions of them, including versions based on some of the Arban exercises, and then lays out a systematic practice routine that grows with time, incorporating material from six other well-known books including flexibility books, Arbans, Saint-Jacome and others.
Also, Claude added Clarke's method of developing wind power (blowing strength) to the Maggio style pedal note exercises by directing the player to hold the last pedal note of each exercise as long as one has air and then longer, with an attempted crescendo as one runs out of air to really give the blowing muscles a good workout, all the while staying complete relaxed as far as the uninvolved muscles of the "throat" (actually the back of the tongue, soft palate muscles and vocal chord muscles) are concerned, as these areas must stay relaxed when playing, especially in the upper register. Basically, practicing the pedal notes the Gordon way builds strength and helps the player get the knack (or habit) of being able to blow with full strength while not tensing up areas that need to stay relaxed, because you cannot play a pedal note if your throat area tenses up and cuts off the air - pedal notes need a tremendous flow of air to sound (one can hold higher notes on a trumpet for up to a minute, but a Pedal C played at full volume won't last more than maybe 8 seconds or so). Maggio just had his students hold those last pedal notes for a while - not until out of air, and as such, failed to provided the development of air power nor the help in learning to blow very hard while staying very relaxed, a critical necessity when playing the extreme upper register.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9834 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetmandan wrote: | The two methods are closely related. Both are proven and have stood the test of time. The Gordon method is more comprehensive, IMO. I think of Gordon's Systematic Approach as kind of a modernization of Maggio's teachings. Gordon builds on Maggio's pedal tone/range exercises and creates a complete fundamentals course using material from Clarke, Arban, St. Jacome, and others.
Some will debate what Gordon wrote about the physical mechanics of trumpet playing, but one of the nearly universally accepted tenets of his method is that good, consistent range is a by-product of good, consistent fundamentals. If you diligently practice the material as he instructs over an extended period of time, improvement is inevitable. |
All very true.
I would like to add that what Claude Gordon wrote about the physical mechanics of playing is exactly what both his teachers Herbert L. Clarke and Louis Maggio also taught - and that information has now been confirmed several times by modern scientific studies, including this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctyzYXd6HNw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA
Best wishes,
John |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Claude Gordon SA and Bill Knevitt's Crash Course.
Bill Knevitt was a student and friend of Mr. Gordon and wrote his version of Claude's systematic approach.
A systematic, progressive daily routine is the best approach to learning how to play. For a beginning to intermedate player Bill's Knevitt's "Crash Course For Home Study" is fine and it uses basically the same materials as Claude's course with some new things added. For the more seasoned advanced player "Systematic Approach To Daily Practice" by Claude Gordon is the way. If you select Claude's program spend at least 2 wks per lesson for a couple wks at the beginning. The big difference between the two is that Bill Knevitt's course doesn't build up as fast at the start and is best for the beginning and comeback player, ("For some of the advance players these first lessons may seem a bit on the easy side. The reason for this is that I would rather be a little bit behind the advance player than way ahead of the intermediate players." William B. Knevitt) they both arrive at the same place after their 52 wk program. And add benefit of Bill's course is that it has accompanying audio file for each of the 52 lessons which tells you clearly how to practice each lesson correctly. - Contact Bob Latorre for details at bob_latorre@hotmail.com
https://qpress.ca/.../ultra-trumpet-crash-course-home.../
------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Miller wrote:
Bill Knevitt Crash Course does the job for me. Pecking around at various others (flexibility studies, long tone specific books etc) didn't work for me as I hadn't the awareness, when first coming back, what were my weaknesses. Knevitt CC gives me structured weekly lessons based around Gordon's teachings. Includes an Arban and a Hering etude each week. I spend at least a couple of weeks on each lesson. From this structure I'm able to spot my weak areas and through research here at TH able to find other exercises / methods to target those and I slot them into my practise routine. I live rural so don't have access to any good teachers. You may be lucky and have that option.
Aug 5, 2017 TH _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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GreatRambino New Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2019 Posts: 9
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info! |
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lambchop Regular Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2017 Posts: 74
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Wow, that tongue channel is pretty deep and tightly rounded on the high notes. I didn't realize that. Would you expect your tougue to look like that when you play high notes John? Maybe I learned something. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Maggio vs Gordon book |
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spencerkotulski wrote: | For range development and becoming better in general is the Maggio book better or is the gordon book better? |
Gordon has a more extensive set of exercises. Thing to remember is that Claude Gordon studied Maggio's system. Both are pedal tone theory books. So if pedals are something which appeals to you? You might consider giving them a try.
I believe that the Maggio book had been in and out of print for a number of years prior to my finding it in 1970. Heck even back when I was in high school Louis Maggio had already been dead for 13 years. My source says that he died in 1957. Who's the source? Trumpetherald lol...
As to whether pedals will work well for you? Keep in mind that just as some people swear by them? Others swear AT them. Bud Brisbois generally regarded as one of history's most noted high note artists played with a very forward jaw, usually this makes for an "upstream" type of embouchure. Thus he did not use pedal tones. Actually going as far as to say that although he had tried them yet they really started to screw him up. From my studies I too have noticed that those who play with their jaw forward as did Brisbois. Will avoid pedals. That and also place more lower lip on the mouthpiece tend to avoid playing pedals. No absolutes here. But then again
Roy Stevens, the premier, classic "upstream" embouchure advocate insisted that his students never use pedals. Ditto Donald Reinhardt. And while Reinhardt did not often convert his students to "Up" (as did Stevens did) and even had various chapters devoted to playing "Downstream" depending upon physiology? Never the less Reinhardt was at least as opposed to playing pedals as anyone.
So, Go figure? _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9834 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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lambchop wrote: |
Wow, that tongue channel is pretty deep and tightly rounded on the high notes. I didn't realize that. Would you expect your tougue to look like that when you play high notes John? Maybe I learned something. |
Yes.
It's very easy to emulate that tongue arch position (at least off the horn).
Just make a sissing noise like a snake. sssssssss. Blow as hard as you can while doing this and if you put the palm of your hand in front of your face while doing this you will feel a very forceful, highly condensed stream of fast air hitting your palm. This is what one does to climb into the range above High C. Note that the "air speed" might not really be fast when actually playing the really high notes as the lips will likely be slowing the air down as they vibrate. I don't know for sure whether or not "fast air creates high notes", but it doesn't really matter. What matters is how the tongue is arched all the way up and forward creating that tiny channel of air, directing the air with very concentrated force to a very small area of the lips.
Best wishes,
John |
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lambchop Regular Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2017 Posts: 74
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:33 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: |
Yes.
It's very easy to emulate that tongue arch position (at least off the horn).
Just make a sissing noise like a snake. sssssssss. Blow as hard as you can while doing this and if you put the palm of your hand in front of your face while doing this you will feel a very forceful, highly condensed stream of fast air hitting your palm. This is what one does to climb into the range above High C. Note that the "air speed" might not really be fast when actually playing the really high notes as the lips will likely be slowing the air down as they vibrate. I don't know for sure whether or not "fast air creates high notes", but it doesn't really matter. What matters is how the tongue is arched all the way up and forward creating that tiny channel of air, directing the air with very concentrated force to a very small area of the lips.
Best wishes,
John |
Nice description! It does seem to cause the tongue position to approach that of the video. I tend to agree with the air speed theory, given the lung pressure is higher too. The video doesn't convey what happens to mouth/lung pressure but it seems like a useful trumpet pedagogy tool. Maybe they need a little graph of mouth pressure in real time next to it. A picture can be worth a thousand words. |
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lambchop Regular Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2017 Posts: 74
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:26 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | ...
Also, Claude added Clarke's method of developing wind power (blowing strength) to the Maggio style pedal note exercises by directing the player to hold the last pedal note of each exercise as long as one has air and then longer, with an attempted crescendo as one runs out of air to really give the blowing muscles a good workout, all the while staying complete relaxed as far as the uninvolved muscles of the "throat" (actually the back of the tongue, soft palate muscles and vocal chord muscles) are concerned, as these areas must stay relaxed when playing, especially in the upper register. Basically, practicing the pedal notes the Gordon way builds strength and helps the player get the knack (or habit) of being able to blow with full strength while not tensing up areas that need to stay relaxed, because you cannot play a pedal note if your throat area tenses up and cuts off the air - pedal notes need a tremendous flow of air to sound (one can hold higher notes on a trumpet for up to a minute, but a Pedal C played at full volume won't last more than maybe 8 seconds or so). |
I appreciate that detailed post. I didn't know or forgot about the non-tensed throat aspect of the pedals in the theory behind that exercise. |
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lambchop Regular Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2017 Posts: 74
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:27 am Post subject: |
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solo soprano wrote: | ...The big difference between the two is that Bill Knevitt's course doesn't build up as fast at the start and is best for the beginning and comeback player, ("For some of the advance players these first lessons may seem a bit on the easy side. The reason for this is that I would rather be a little bit behind the advance player than way ahead of the intermediate players." William B. Knevitt) they both arrive at the same place after their 52 wk program. And add benefit of Bill's course is that it has accompanying audio file for each of the 52 lessons which tells you clearly how to practice each lesson correctly. |
I was checking this out and see the second routine in the first lesson goes above high C. Is that beginner to intermediate? He does say to only go as high as you can to get the top note out strongly and rest for an hour or more.
Could be some key advice, but it still seems it could take too long for a beginner to get past just this one routine. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:13 am Post subject: |
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In squeezing all the air out, isn't it a challenge not to tense up or close your throat up? Seems to me to be a non-constructive way to end such an exercise.
And I understand the reason for squeezing out the breath. Saw Claude demonstrate it at UNT, BTW, and I think it's a good exercise. Just not as an end to a pedal tone exercise. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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A. Keith Amstutz New Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2015 Posts: 5 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:39 pm Post subject: Maggie vs Gordon book |
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Many years ago I was asked to serve on the faculty of one of Claude Gordon Summer Camps in California. I was very impressed with Claude’s personal approach and concerns for all those in attendance. He made each individual feel he could succeed.
I feel the integrated approach of Gordon worked best for most students. This approach also involved the materials I already was using.
Everyone in the trumpet world has worn out several Clarke Technical Studies books during their lifetime My companion to the Clarke was “27 Groups of Exercises” by Col. Earl D Irons. Only after I was studying wilh Col Irons did I learn that he was a close friend of Herbert Clarke and that Clarke assigned the Irons book to his students.
A bit of trivia, but interesting. _________________ Dr. A. Keith Amstutz
Prof. Emeritus, Trumpet
University of South Carolina |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9834 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | In squeezing all the air out, isn't it a challenge not to tense up or close your throat up? Seems to me to be a non-constructive way to end such an exercise.
And I understand the reason for squeezing out the breath. Saw Claude demonstrate it at UNT, BTW, and I think it's a good exercise. Just not as an end to a pedal tone exercise. |
I already addressed this in an earlier post but you might have missed it (it was a long post). Again, with italics for emphasis:
John Mohan wrote: | Basically, practicing the pedal notes the Gordon way builds strength and helps the player get the knack (or habit) of being able to blow with full strength while not tensing up areas that need to stay relaxed, because you cannot play a pedal note if your throat area tenses up and cuts off the air - pedal notes need a tremendous flow of air to sound (one can hold higher notes on a trumpet for up to a minute, but a Pedal C played at full volume won't last more than maybe 8 seconds or so). |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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John, I did read that but don't make a connection with playing pedals and squeezing out the last breath. I don't see the two as connected. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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lambchop Regular Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2017 Posts: 74
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | In squeezing all the air out, isn't it a challenge not to tense up or close your throat up? Seems to me to be a non-constructive way to end such an exercise.
And I understand the reason for squeezing out the breath. Saw Claude demonstrate it at UNT, BTW, and I think it's a good exercise. Just not as an end to a pedal tone exercise. |
Don't think it is really a pedal tone exercise.
Think of designing the air power exercise where you squeeze out the breath. That is agreed to be good. Now try figure what note to use for the squeeze portion. A high note would not be good because it would last too long and be hard on you. A low one would use more air flow and wouldn't last long. A pedal has that advantage plus the fact the throat is open - tongue is down to get low. So the pedal seems best to use since you are training with a open throat. Your point is that the squeeze causes tension which is true but if you do tense, it is hard to play the pedal, so it serves as an indicator that you are tensing and then you can train to avoid that as well.
My problem with it was I found the pedals hard on me and I played them too long. Maybe the cornet has less air flow.
A similar exercise is on the Bill Knevitt audios above. He seems to run out of air in only 8 seconds on a middle C even. I would go 30 seconds.
When I was in 5th grade I had a Grand Rapids cornet with a small bore mouthpiece. I think it had a lot of resistance but I learned to play it. Once the older student trumpet player was going to show me something on my horn, but he couldn't even get a note out of it. Just thinking of more evidence of flow differences between horns or maybe players. |
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