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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10209 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:30 am Post subject: Ideal Solo Order |
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Our swing band typically winds up a performance with C Jam Blues with 24 bar solos by six different players.
However, we don't agree on the best solo order for maximum inpact.
How would you position alto, tenor, bari, trumpet, trombone, guitar.
The strongest soloist in that group is the guitar player. The weakest is the bari.
Also, would you drop one of the horns in favor of a bass solo?
What about having the bass and the bari trade fours - that way the bari would have some licks to play off of? _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8975 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:41 am Post subject: |
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That's a lot of solos. Maybe alternate some of the players on different gigs? As for the order, you could swap them around from gig to gig both for variety and to see if one or another order "fits" your group better. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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homebilly Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2207 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:49 am Post subject: |
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trumpet followed by trumpet and then more trumpet! _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:52 am Post subject: |
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6 soloists playing a couple of choruses of a blues...in a row...can get boring for the listeners...fast. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I'd structure it in the order of weakest player to strongest player. That would build ever increasing interest as the solos progress. I don't think what instrument is being played matters. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:27 am Post subject: |
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This reminds me of Chocolate Sundae, from the Jazz Giants '58 album. Soloists played in this order:
Bass, Ray Brown
Bari sax, Gerry Mulligan
Guitar, Herb Ellis
Piano, Oscar Peterson
Tenor sax, Stan Getz
Trumpet, Sweets Edison
Soft tag ending by rhythm section, with a few calls/responses from instruments.
The rhythm section started playing very light and relaxed and gradually increased the intensity, which peaked with Sweets' trumpet solo. Everyone was swinging. Great, great playing. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10209 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Good ideas, guys! Thanks! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2627
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:40 am Post subject: |
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homebilly wrote: | trumpet followed by trumpet and then more trumpet! |
Exactly - I thought this answer was obvious. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Larry Smithee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Benge.nut wrote: | 6 soloists playing a couple of choruses of a blues...in a row...can get boring for the listeners...fast. |
I'm sitting here thinking like an audience member. Would I want to sit through a marathon of solo blues choruses for that many players? If they're world class, okay I could deal with it. Otherwise, no. I would likely just get up and leave around the 3rd or 4th soloist. Life's way too short. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:19 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | I'd structure it in the order of weakest player to strongest player. That would build ever increasing interest as the solos progress. I don't think what instrument is being played matters. |
You should work backwards and use contrast in the process.
I personally would start off stronger to capture the listener. Once captured then cash in on that capital (weaker player). Then crescendo in overall intensity to the end. I'd, however consider the bass solo as a contrast.
Maybe: alto, trombone, baritone, tenor, trumpet, bass, guitar.
Or if you're going to leave somebody out for the bass (contrast) solo, why not exclude the weakest soloist - baritone (sorry, cold but...sorry)?
In that case, maybe: trumpet, trombone, alto, tenor, bass, guitar.
In any case, depending on the venue and crowd, I think that might be either too long or too many solos. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale).
Last edited by kehaulani on Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:30 am; edited 3 times in total |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Oddly enough, my thought on the matter is that it doesn't matter - unless you are performing for a room full of musicians, no one is going to know who the "better" soloist is.
End with the player who can rev it up the most and provide the most fireworks for an uneducated crowd. The rest of it is irrelevant IMO.
Oh - and like Larry said, limit it to 3 soloists. Even I get bored listening to more than that and I'm a musician. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Don Herman rev2 wrote: | That's a lot of solos. Maybe alternate some of the players on different gigs? As for the order, you could swap them around from gig to gig both for variety and to see if one or another order "fits" your group better. |
This, absolutely. Even if the soloists are incredible, the average audience member can't tell "incredible" from "eh." As much as we all like to have fun on a gig, we have to put the audience interest first to a large degree, especially since we're being paid to play. Hell, the average club owner considers musicians to be about the same level as his kitchen/wait staff, a necessary expense, sometimes less necessary than the others, in their opinion.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10209 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Sad but true. I've actually been mistaken for wait staff. I guess it's the black polos we wear. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2627
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Larry Smithee wrote: | I'm sitting here thinking like an audience member. Would I want to sit through a marathon of solo blues choruses for that many players? If they're world class, okay I could deal with it. Otherwise, no. I would likely just get up and leave around the 3rd or 4th soloist. Life's way too short. |
trickg wrote: | Oh - and like Larry said, limit it to 3 soloists. Even I get bored listening to more than that and I'm a musician. |
There's an illogic to this - they came specifically to hear a band play music - you think they're likely to be impatient for the band to stop playing music?
I often sit through the credits at movies if it's music I like to get my money's worth listening to the big sound system. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7771 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:11 am Post subject: |
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People will sit if the solos are interesting. I'd not get too bent out of shape about it, Jim. Are your gigs at clubs or nursing/old folk/asst living-type homes? If I remember correctly, you're playing a lot for older crowds. Unless they're fairly sophisticated as listeners I don't think you have anything to worry about. If they are, wth? It's the last tune and everyone knows it. Just play and have fun. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | There's an illogic to this - they came specifically to hear a band play music - you think they're likely to be impatient for the band to stop playing music?
I often sit through the credits at movies if it's music I like to get my money's worth listening to the big sound system. |
I agree. If the soloists are playing well, who cares if there are six? Even one solo played aimlessly is boring. But Paul Gonsalves soloed for 27 choruses at Newport, and the crowd loved it.
Plus, your bandmates will benefit from the chance to solo. Ok, maybe none will play like Paul Gonsalves at the next gig. But they have to start somewhere. I say give 'em a chance to try and play something tasteful and interesting. Not just a flurry of random notes that fit with the chords, but lines that seem to be going somewhere.
You wouldn't want to do an extended "Jazz Odyssey" like in Spinal Tap, but you don't have to cut everything down to 3 minutes either. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10209 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of good comments, and I appreciate them. Craig is correct. Even though we have started to play clubs this particular gig is a senior audience that has liked our playing and asked us back several times.
The gig will also give us a chance to test drive some of the tips we received at our last rehearsal. I used some band profits to bring in John Mose, a Chicago-area first call trombone player and all-around jazz phenom to run the session as a master class.
We spent a full hour working out the kinks on A Train and the next hour hearing John's evaluation of each player's soloing. It was a great session with a lot of take-away. Here are some of the things he recommended:
Positioning the rhythm section so they could make eye contact.
Moving the bass amp so it would blow across the horn section.
More volume from the alto as the lead reed.
Horns should listen more closely and match their note lengths.
More space, fewer notes, more repeated motives in solos.
Softer softs and louder louds.
At the end of the session we sounded like a different band! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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jazzchamp08 New Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2010 Posts: 6 Location: Erie,Pa
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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If you're going to have bass with all of that, I'd have them go first. _________________ ~Chris |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Larry Smithee wrote: | I'm sitting here thinking like an audience member. Would I want to sit through a marathon of solo blues choruses for that many players? If they're world class, okay I could deal with it. Otherwise, no. I would likely just get up and leave around the 3rd or 4th soloist. Life's way too short. |
trickg wrote: | Oh - and like Larry said, limit it to 3 soloists. Even I get bored listening to more than that and I'm a musician. |
There's an illogic to this - they came specifically to hear a band play music - you think they're likely to be impatient for the band to stop playing music?
I often sit through the credits at movies if it's music I like to get my money's worth listening to the big sound system. |
I think the point both of them are making is that audiences can get bored pretty quickly with multiple solos, even if they are spectacular...because as I mentioned before the average audience member can't tell the difference between spectacular and only fair, though I doubt the audience would literally get up and leave. My band does one particular song that has more solos than I think we should have (which the band leader disagrees with....so we keep doing them), and you can see from the stage that the audience loses interest, and I really don't think it's because the solos are not world class. Which they aren't, though a couple in particular are pretty darn good.
Since it's The Sound Hound's (I remembered the band's name!) last song of the night, it's probably not disastrous but I'd prefer to end a job leaving the audience wanting more than possibly losing interest.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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robbo Regular Member
Joined: 27 May 2016 Posts: 93 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: |
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That tune and position in a set tends to be a showcase doesn't it, so lots of solos is fine for me.
Changing the backing could add some variety though. Maybe one soloist could solo with bass backing only, or if you've got a good pianist, piano and horn. (with cresc drum roll over last 2 bars and BAM into a big fat swing for the next chorus). Rhythm section could go to a 2 feel for a chorus even.
Do you have backing figures in the band? Mixing them up can add variety too.
Rob _________________ Currently staff arranger for the band of the South Australia Police.
Berklee College of Music, Elder Conservatorium Adelaide, Australia.
For some great trumpet and band music please visit piglet music.com. Grab some free music there! |
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