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dwgib
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 Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | poketrum wrote: | | Vintage TH threads? Priceless. |
Hehe. "Vintage TH Threads vs. New TH Threads" -- what a thread THAT would make!
When it comes to horns, I have a big collection, most of which could be characterized as "vintage" (or at least "classic"). I enjoy them, but since I am strictly an amateur (and perhaps "dilettante" would be more realistic), I don't need to perform credibly at an audition, blend with a section, etc.
On the other hand, for those who earn a living playing and for whom a horn is a tool which must serve them to a certain minimum standard, a new pro-quality instrument is likely going to do the job better given advancements in both design and manufacturing methods.
I was in a local music store a few years ago where I heard one of the employees trying out saxophones in a demo room. He was playing really well, and later when he rang up a purchase for me, I chatted with him for a few minutes about his playing. He turned out to play professionally, so I asked him if he ever got a chance to try classic saxophones like the Selmer Mark VI or the Buescher Super 400. He replied that he had, but that his modern Yanagisawa was so much easier to play well that he would never trade it for one of those old "legendary" models. For him, the "vintage" horns made him work too hard, so as professional tools they didn't make the grade. |
I think that maybe that working a little harder for control they wanted made them better musicians.
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Halflip
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| dwgib wrote: | | I think that maybe that working a little harder for control they wanted made them better musicians. |
I assume that by "they/them" you mean pro musicians 'back in the day'.
Half of the facilities they developed in order to compensate for their instruments' shortcomings (such as bad intonation on certain notes) would just have to be unlearned when playing today's horns. Once freed of the need to expend effort fighting their horns, musicians can achieve incremental improvements in endurance, range, speed of articulation, etc. compared to their predecessors.
You wouldn't find a present day pro golfer or tennis player choosing to use equipment from the 20's, 50's, or even the 80's in an actual tournament. They would lose.
At any rate, my saxophone playing friend would stand by his preference for equipment that doesn't 'fight' him.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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dwgib
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | dwgib wrote: | | I think that maybe that working a little harder for control they wanted made them better musicians. |
I assume that by "they/them" you mean pro musicians 'back in the day'. |
yes
| Quote: | Half of the facilities they developed in order to compensate for their instruments' shortcomings (such as bad intonation on certain notes) would just have to be unlearned when playing today's horns. Once freed of the need to expend effort fighting their horns, musicians can achieve incremental improvements in endurance, range, speed of articulation, etc. compared to their predecessors.
You wouldn't find a present day pro golfer or tennis player choosing to use equipment from the 20's, 50's, or even the 80's in an actual tournament. They would lose. |
I think you are doing the equivalent of blaming the tools, when, especially in music, it is the talent that counts the most, how else do you explain the sound Louis Armstrong got out of his 1919 Tonk Sterling? Did getting a better horn help him play better, likely, but playing the Tonk he was good enough to get national attention and corporate sponsorship contracts. Not sure if you've ever played one, but, although a nice horn, it really is a student level even by standards back then, even the feel is kinda "tinny". My LJ Hutchens is made better IMO.
And as far as the golf analogy, my best friend in Vegas was a golf fanatic and had lots of money, always buying the latest greatest drivers, etc.,I started playing with him and I always beat him with my set of clubs I got at Goodwill for $50
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Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
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Martin Imperial('64)
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Halflip
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:07 am Post subject: |
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I'll let my saxophone player anecdote stand. It is factual.
Others can weigh in with their opinions, if they care.
You and your golf fanatic friend hardly represent pro golfers, though. And there's no doubt that Allen Vizzutti would sound better on a Bundy than a rank amateur would on a Monette. But if two trumpet performance graduates of equal ability were auditioning for a chair in a symphony orchestra, they both would want to use the best equipment possible.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | I'll let my saxophone player anecdote stand. |
Picking a suitable instrument to play makes sense for any musician, however the anecdote is still a single person's preference. It's also about saxophones.
| Halflip wrote: | | if two trumpet performance graduates of equal ability were auditioning for a chair in a symphony orchestra, they both would want to use the best equipment possible. |
Can you also confirm that, given the choice of any trumpet (vintage and modern), they would opt for modern equipment without question?
Or maybe the question should be reversed: does anyone know of a top-level player who doesn't play on a horn made in say, the last decade or 2?
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Halflip
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | Halflip wrote: | | I'll let my saxophone player anecdote stand. |
Picking a suitable instrument to play makes sense for any musician, however the anecdote is still a single person's preference. It's also about saxophones. |
It is a single person's preference, but it proves that the viewpoint exists.
| stuartissimo wrote: | | Halflip wrote: | | if two trumpet performance graduates of equal ability were auditioning for a chair in a symphony orchestra, they both would want to use the best equipment possible. |
Can you also confirm that, given the choice of any trumpet (vintage and modern), they would opt for modern equipment without question? |
Nope! But I am interested in hearing what forum contributors in just that situation have used.
| stuartissimo wrote: | | Or maybe the question should be reversed: does anyone know of a top-level player who doesn't play on a horn made in say, the last decade or 2? |
Actually, the question should be, "How many professional trumpet players earn their living using new equipment, and how many use 'vintage' equipment?" (Otherwise, we're going get a lot of "What about Chris Botti! What about Chris Botti!")
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Thu Sep 14, 2023 5:22 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ronnman
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | Or maybe the question should be reversed: does anyone know of a top-level player who doesn't play on a horn made in say, the last decade or 2? |
Chris Botti comes to mind playing a 40’s Martin Committee.
Ron
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Halflip
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Ronnman wrote: | | Chris Botti comes to mind playing a 40’s Martin Committee. |
| halflip wrote: | | Actually, the question should be, "How many professional trumpet players earn their living using new equipment, and how many use 'vintage' equipment?" (Otherwise, we're going get a lot of "What about Chris Botti! What about Chris Botti!") |
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Thu Sep 14, 2023 5:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bethmike
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Don't forget that nostalgia is a powerful emotion. And good music is about emotions.
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Halflip
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Bethmike wrote: | | Don't forget that nostalgia is a powerful emotion. And good music is about emotions. |
Very true. But answering the question "How many professional trumpet players earn their living using new equipment, and how many use 'vintage' equipment?" is the only way to resolve the point being debated.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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dwgib
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:21 am Post subject: |
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I'm just going to say, where today can you get a new trumpet like this, designed with the help, and for, one of the premier trumpet players in the world, Gustav Heim, for $800?
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sd4f
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | At any rate, my saxophone playing friend would stand by his preference for equipment that doesn't 'fight' him. |
I think this is fundamentally it as it really comes down to what the instrument lets you do.
I've offended guitar enthusiasts in the past, because this penchant for vintage anything seems to be very strong in the guitar world, and I suspect it leaks over to other areas as well, but also something which seems to be mostly concentrated in the USA.
It seems to be very closely aligned with nostalgia for a bygone era in the states, but anyway, a lot of todays take on vintage was that highly skilled artisans made everything, because it predates any serious automation. Meanwhile, in other industries such as automobiles, there are all sorts of stories, like cars built on mondays or fridays generally being slapped together, depending whether it was from a hangover or getting ready to have the next one. Some stuff produced then was really hack work, because it was being made to a price, and it was just a job to those doing the work.
A good instrument is a good instrument is a good instrument. I have no particular affinity for vintage stuff to use, but in general, if it works, is in serviceable condition, and lets you play your best then you've practically won; just go and play now. |
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dwgib
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| sd4f wrote: | | Halflip wrote: | | At any rate, my saxophone playing friend would stand by his preference for equipment that doesn't 'fight' him. |
I think this is fundamentally it as it really comes down to what the instrument lets you do.
I've offended guitar enthusiasts in the past, because this penchant for vintage anything seems to be very strong in the guitar world, and I suspect it leaks over to other areas as well, but also something which seems to be mostly concentrated in the USA.
It seems to be very closely aligned with nostalgia for a bygone era in the states, but anyway, a lot of todays take on vintage was that highly skilled artisans made everything, because it predates any serious automation. Meanwhile, in other industries such as automobiles, there are all sorts of stories, like cars built on mondays or fridays generally being slapped together, depending whether it was from a hangover or getting ready to have the next one. Some stuff produced then was really hack work, because it was being made to a price, and it was just a job to those doing the work.
A good instrument is a good instrument is a good instrument. I have no particular affinity for vintage stuff to use, but in general, if it works, is in serviceable condition, and lets you play your best then you've practically won; just go and play now. |
I think the key in some of the best vintage horns is due to a small group of people who interweaved the musical industry, some working at multiple companies like Shilke, Reynolds, Kanstul, Holton, Martin, Conn, Bach, Selmer, York were not only designers & inventors of better ways to make them, but were old school hand makers of instruments with a high quality control ethic they insisted on and implement in their factories even after automation was doing more and more of the work. I think that quality control, and it's cost, started getting in the way of profits after the market shift to more student grade horns in the late 50's, 60's, and 70's and, in my experience, the larger the company, the more the accountants/profits drive the methods of producing those profits. Kanstul left Olds for that reason, and the smaller companies that kept the quality control went bankrupt or forced to sell because quality was no longer profitable when selling mostly to students, who were unlikely to know the difference. For instance, I recently saw a post where a guy said he bought a Bach in the early 80's for $435 and that was likely comparable with inflation, to $1700, the price today, but was corrected that the price today was $2700 (I don't remember date on post). To me it shows that to maintain quality, Bach has had to charge 60% more for their Strad. That's why the smaller companies fold. I don't know how companies like Harrelson manage with price of over $4000 per horn, who has that much to buy a trumpet? Very few I would imagine. That's why I'll keep my vintage Olds Super, King Super 20, Conn New York Symphony's, and Holton Gustav Heim Revelation at 25% of that or even 10% of that, because there can't be that much innovation over their quality and design that would be worth paying 4-10 times as much. Saxophones, being a much more complicated instrument, I realize that changes in the keywork and design have come a long way and have constantly evolved, so I understand the pro sax player's attitude. But even then, I'll keep my 1937 Martin Committee Alto for $350 over a $6000 new Selmer/Yamaha, etc. because the keywork on it isn't that hard.
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Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
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Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19)
Last edited by dwgib on Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| dwgib wrote: | | That's why I'll keep my vintage Olds Super, King Super 20, Conn New York Symphony's, and Holton Gustav Heim Revelation at 25% of that or even 10% of that, because their can't be that much innovation over their quality and design that would be worth paying 4-10 times as much. |
dwgib, you really need to try something like a Yamaha YTR-9335VSII, or take your best vintage horn to a trumpet player in your local symphony and have them play test your horn against what they're playing and tell you which one they would choose to use in a professional capacity (and why), before you make an assumption like that.
My whole point throughout this thread has been that vintage horns are better for some people, but not everyone. In disagreeing with that viewpoint, are you saying that vintage horns are better for every trumpet player regardless of circumstances?
Just for reference, here are some statements from posters on the first page of this thread:
| p76 wrote: | I think one needs to be very wary about a blanket statement saying the older horns were better.
First question would be how many new horns have you tried? Yes, some might feel lifeless and dull, but many are amazing. My favourite horn is my 1960s Yam634, but that's because I've played it so long it's like a part of me. You need to take that out of the equation.
I've played modern horns that have done nothing for me when I was sure I was going to be blown away (Shires Destino), and I've played modern horns that have completely blown me away when I wasn't expecting much (LA Yam).
Some people hook into the nostalgia of playing something old.
I note that most players who rely on the horn for their income tend towards newer equipment.... to me that says something. |
| Craig Swartz wrote: | | I disagree that vintage instruments are better, if playing them is the goal. |
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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dwgib
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: |
dwgib, you really need to try something like a Yamaha YTR-9335VSII, or take your best vintage horn to a trumpet player in your local symphony and have them play test your horn against what they're playing and tell you which one they would choose to use in a professional capacity (and why), before you make an assumption like that.
My whole point throughout this thread has been that vintage horns are better for some people, but not everyone. In disagreeing with that viewpoint, are you saying that vintage horns are better for every trumpet player regardless of circumstances?
Just for reference, here are some statements from posters on the first page of this thread:
| p76 wrote: | I think one needs to be very wary about a blanket statement saying the older horns were better.
First question would be how many new horns have you tried? Yes, some might feel lifeless and dull, but many are amazing. My favourite horn is my 1960s Yam634, but that's because I've played it so long it's like a part of me. You need to take that out of the equation.
I've played modern horns that have done nothing for me when I was sure I was going to be blown away (Shires Destino), and I've played modern horns that have completely blown me away when I wasn't expecting much (LA Yam).
Some people hook into the nostalgia of playing something old.
I note that most players who rely on the horn for their income tend towards newer equipment.... to me that says something. |
| Craig Swartz wrote: | | I disagree that vintage instruments are better, if playing them is the goal. |
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No trumpet fits that bill, but, I'm a realist, and my opinion is that that Yamaha you referenced is doubtfully 8X better than my Olds Super or 32X better than my Conn New York Symphony, nor is a new Yanagisawa alto saxophone 18X better than my Martin Committee, nor will any of them help me play that many times better. Yet that's how their costs compare.
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Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| dwgib wrote: | | No trumpet fits that bill, but, I'm a realist, and my opinion is that that Yamaha you referenced is doubtfully 8X better than my Olds Super or 32X better than my Conn New York Symphony, nor is a new Yanagisawa alto saxophone 18X better than my Martin Committee, nor will any of them help me play that many times better. Yet that's how their costs compare. |
1) You have formed an opinion without even trying the modern instruments you are dismissing. How reliable is an opinion like that?
2) I repeat: My whole point throughout this thread has been that vintage horns are better for some people, but not everyone. In disagreeing with that viewpoint, are you saying that vintage horns are better for every trumpet player regardless of circumstances? (When you say "No trumpet fits that bill," are you agreeing that vintage trumpets are not better for some players?)
Vintage instruments are better for you, and that's great. (Vintage instruments are probably better for me, too.)
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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"Different strokes for different folks".
I prefer to play instruments (I'm a multi-instrumentalist) that enable my music personality to emerge.
I'm not above modifying (oh, such sacrilege !!) any instrument, new or vintage, to achieve that elusive "sound in my head".
I LOVE new Yamaha horns. Amazing instruments. Yet - I cannot seem to find my "soul center sound" on them.
I pick up one of my vintage Cousenons, F. Besson (Paris), Martin Committees, Vegas, Conn 28A, Holtons, Wm. Franks, Yorks ... and-so-forth ... and I am THERE ! With little/no effort, aside from mouthpiece selection ... and, a bit of "attitude".
Modern equipment often cannot replicate vintage music instruments.
I sold my Hammond B3 organ (with Leslie tone cabinet) several years ago. I am not convinced anything ... even the vaunted Hammond-Suzuki SK1-73 modern "equivalent" ... can emulate / replace the B3 (350-lb monster that it is).
I've heard play / spoken with Wynton Marsalis and Chris Botti.
I soon went off to try a new Monette. Botti's horn I have covered. 
The Monette's "personality" was elusive for me. Just couldn't find it.
I am not a pro ... (at least I don't make my sole source of income reliant upon my gigging). Those struggling days are long gone. I no longer have to audition. People have to now audition for me.
Over my years, I have received more compliments on the sounds of my vintage gear ... be it, guitar, organ, horns, drums (with old goatskin heads).
I am NOT "close-minded". If I can acquire a music instrument that is more reliable, lighter, easier to maintain, less affected by hot/cold/humidity ... I'm all for it. Cost does matter, though. As does re-sale value.
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Bill Ortiz
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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A good horn is a good horn, be it new or vintage. I've played both-I never played a vintage horn because it was a vintage horn. It just worked for me. I've played vintage horns for the majority of my career but play a newer horn now, and my vintage horns in my closet. I had a very wise trumpet teacher who once said "don't fall in love with your horn because of what it is-your instrument is just a tool. It's about the work and the player above all else.
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sd4f
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 5:07 am Post subject: |
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It's probably worthwhile referring to the malaise era, as it seems to have affected most of American manufacturing during the 70's and 80's where cost cutting was necessary, and quality went down. This may have been what kick started the search for "vintage" because in some instances, you were definitely buying a superior product if you avoided the newest production.
Maybe in 30 years time, when my instruments, which are now around 15-30 years old, will be seen as vintage, maybe I'll be saying the same things, in that I see no reason to spend the money on something newer as there's no real value to be had, that is if red rot hasn't eaten them away. I understand value, as I'm an amateur, so constantly pouring money into new gear is kind of pointless, since trying to "buy my notes" just doesn't seem to work that much.
This topic has many dimensions to it, and I can think of as many reasons to justify "vintage" as also think that it's a fad and silly at times to limit yourself only to vintage. Certain instruments have no value in vintage, because they're just generally seen as "worn out" like pianos for instance. Whereas Violins are the classical example of ultimate vintage, where examples made by the Italian masters are considered to be the pinnacle and unsurpassed, but unfortunately with more access and scientific analysis, that seems to be more myth than anything else; that is to say, they don't suck, but being of unsurpassed quality only exists in people's imaginations and internal bias. So lumping "vintage" as some sort of reason to be interested, for me is more of a marketing gimmick.
I think it's also worth considering how perceptions have changed. Since I started playing in the 90's, it was generally seen that most instruments had to be tried out, because it was always hit and miss, even among reputable manufacturers, you could get a dud. Yamaha was the one company, who somehow had incorporated consistency into their production, where their instruments tended to play more alike, rather than having the odd dud, at least that's the perception. Today, with internet buying, eBay and reverb, I'd say that most instruments are purchased sight unseen, something which not that long ago everyone would deride the purchaser for taking a huge risk and just wasting their money, after all, if it was any good, why would they be selling it? |
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