Why vintage trumpets are better?

[Mac Gollehon]

Great post Lipshurt. Especially noteworthy is your assessment of the Connstellation as a departure from the norm in design. I also think the Buescher 400 hit a design level and build that would be tough to improve upon even today.

[zaferis]

just a point that no one has mentioned yet...

Brass instruments age.. the metal ages and changes subtly - I've heard it described as losing it's memory of being flat-all the stress of being molded and soldered has dissipated.

Whether it's better or worse well, depends on the instrument and what you're looking for. There are some damn good new trumpets being made and likewise some vintage ones that are amazing.
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Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[Dennis78]

Well vintage ones are usually half the price
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a few different ones

[LittleRusty]

[Benge.nut]

[Shoe]

In my lifetime, I've been kinda burned by buying vntage horns. In high school, I bought into the vintage craze I read about and would buy old horns, and though they played well, they didn't help me blend and learn how to balance with a section of strads and xenos and jupiters.
I ended up selling all my old horns for a modern one that helps me do everything better for my current applications.
Again, the horns I had played well, but went nessairily as viable as, say, a strad 37 was for me. Again , YMMV and I'm not exactly a great player, so other players might not of had the same issues I had blending and fitting in.
Sure they played very well, but, for where I was in my playing, age, and uses, they were not the horns for me.
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several horns

[Shoe]

I will say the old holtons and Conns I've had/borrowed had great build quality and the worksmanship was superb though, so you might be right about the individual worksmanship for vintage horns to some modern horns
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several horns

[Benge.nut]

[Shoe]

What trumpet new or vintage wouldn't blend with a "section of Bach Xenos and Jupiters"?

ive played all kinds of horns over the years and never understood this "blending" issue phenomenon people speak of. If I'm in a section and not playing lead, I play under the lead player. Support him, don't overpower him, and don't stand out. But if I'm in tune and playing in context I can blend with anybody, no matter what horn I'm using.

Never understood that statement I hear people using all the time....besides, even most vintage horns have the same Besson style design as do newer horns. Even when I play different horns like a Connstelation I can still blend in a section with anybody playing a Bach or whatever.[/quote]

Symphonic/classical, and chamber/quintet were very difficult for me to blend with.
I've had a holton B47, an old Buesher true tone (sp?), a conn 28a, holton revalation, and I had borrowed a conn vocabell as well. I found more sucess with a stock bach 37 after some time in college, as well as my lawler, though it is more difficult for endsamble playing on that.
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several horns

[MacMichael]

My 1951 Olds Recording and even my 1953 Olds Ambassador play like no toher modern horn in their respective price range.
Craftmanship is or rather was the key here in my opinion.
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Olds Recording Trumpet, LA 1951
Carol Brass 8060H-GLS balanced Trumpet
Jupiter Flugelhorn 846RL

[p76]

[yourbrass]

Good discussion.

Perception seems to get in the way. We think a certain maker does great work and we look for "one of those." In my case, I had been looking for a Calicchio with a #2 bell for a couple of years because I had worked on a couple of them and really liked the blow. So I find one, pay the seller a substantial amount, and get a trumpet that was original, no one had worked on it since Dominic sprayed the lacquer on in his backyard in the 60's.

Well, I played the thing for months, after correcting many small problems and having the valves refitted at ASP, and finally gave up - it just didn't play well enough. Then I got a couple of pipes from Mr. Duda and low and behold, one worked great. But I have an unfair advantage in that I can experiment with things endlessly as a repairman. What the hell chance does the average player have?

So find a good horn and play it, and forget about age.
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[MacMichael]

[razeontherock]

"Find a good horn and play it," excellent advice!

Also, if you can find a new Getzen Proteus, you'll find something that isn't boring. And their attention to detail is second to none.

What happens as instruments age can be observed under a microscope, and duplicated by cryogenic treatment.

[dcjway]

One of my teachers was assistant principal trumpet for the St Louis Symphony (now retired) and he preferred that I played my 1934 Bach, he thought my Shires was on the bright side. Both horns were built well (the Shires is a work of art) I have had tons of vintage horns some I liked better then others. The Bachs seemed to be the most inconsistent, but from what I've been told Bach was always experimenting with new ideas. I have had 2 large bore Benge, one Chicago (#1599) and one Burbank (#1705) I thought the Burbank was a better horn though they were both made by Elden in his shop, though the Burbank was made for Al Ballanco who was a New Orleans band leader. All my committees were a little different, even when they were the same bore size, and I've had several Olds Recording and two Super Recording (you can peel paint with these) as well as four Blessing Super Artists and a Selmer Balanced. I agree with the guys about the Olds trumpets, they play well and are built solid, like tanks, all the solder points have been tight and clean, I don't know how they did it but they did it well. Oh yea I have a 47 year old King 600 that I got when I was 8. I worked for over 20 years on an automotive assembly line so I can tell you even doing the same thing day in and day out things can vary quite a bit.
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Shires Destino III
1971 Bach Vindabona
1947 Martin Committee (Large Bore)
1935 NY Bach 26-59 silver plate

[MacMichael]

[dcjway]

I have seen modern 2000+$ horn with sloppy solder joints...
Of course solder joints are not the one and only criterion for quality.
With Olds it was the whole package, first and foremost the valves, overall construction and above all the amazing tone of especially the Recording trumpet!
My ´51 Recording is second to no other trumpet I have owned.[/quote]

I totally agree great horns. Another horn that has great valves is the King Super 20 SilverSonic Symphony, but for some reason everyone that I've come across had stiff 3rd valve slides.
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Shires Destino III
1971 Bach Vindabona
1947 Martin Committee (Large Bore)
1935 NY Bach 26-59 silver plate

[Louise Finch]

Hi

My opinion on this is that I prefer the reliability of a modern instrument. I'm not saying that all vintage or even the majority of vintage instruments are unreliable, only that I don't want to risk another unreliable one.

My 1978 Bach 37 has a great sound, but the 1st valve to a greater extent, and 2nd valve to a lesser extent, remain problematic. Holton valve oil seems to cause me less trouble, but there is still this sticking on the upstroke of the 1st valve, which drives me mad. I have replacement valve guides, new springs and it had a valve alignment not long ago, so new internal valve felts. I've also replaced the top cap rubber bumpers. This trumpet is really clean, as it has had multiple cleans with a H W Brass Saver pull through, and I have had the H W Brass Saver through all of the tubing, paying particular attention to the tubes between the valves, but it still continues to play up.

I have been advised by two different UK techs that the valve compression is very good considering the age of my trumpet, so it shouldn't need a valve job, and I don't want the valves lapped any further as it is hardly a new instrument whose valves are still in the break in stage, but the issues remain with no obvious way of resolving them, and are very frustrating.

I therefore play a modern Yamaha Xeno II, because I oil the valves every time I play, and can rely on the valves to work reliably without sticking.

Yes, probably this is an issue with one Bach Strad, but it has completely put me off older instruments.

I just cannot be doing with sticking valves any more.

Most probably sticking valves are not an issue with all or even most vintage instruments, but older valves played by probably more than one player who probably press them down slightly differently, and which may or may not have been probably maintained and oiled regularly, is too much of a risk for me after years of battling with my Bach Strad.

YMMV

All the best

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Dennis78]

[Louise Finch]