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mahler2
New Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2019
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:36 pm Post subject: Fake gear on Ebay and TH Marketplace |
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Hey TH!
Just saw a very suspicious-looking Bach Mount Vernon 1 1/2C 24/24 on TH Marketplace, which was removed. Now it's on Ebay, and people are bidding on it. Not totally sure, but I sure wouldn't be betting a couple hundred dollars on such a suspicious looking piece. Watch out for fakes, guys!
*first post over* |
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Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8348
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Link?
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2493
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:03 am Post subject: |
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There are definitely fake Bachs on EBay. But I am referring to the $300 new ones that infringe on a registered trademark by using the Bach logo in photos, use Bach model numbers or something imperceptibly altered, and now have laser engraved bells duplicating the also registered trademark bell crest (unfortunate - the printed bell crest was SO easy to spot). EBay is allowing these sellers to pay for sponsored placement alongside the real thing when people search for Bach Trumpet, etc. I don't understand why Conn-Selmer is not taking legal action against EBay - but then I don't know what it takes legally to be deemed complicit in a fraud..
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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jimspeedjae
Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:36 am Post subject: |
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In Europe at least and the UK rightsholders currently rely on their ability to enforce their rights on intermediary service providers (such as content platforms) through “notice and takedown” orders, where intermediaries are required (through injunctions or voluntary schemes) to block access or remove content where instructed.
Article 14 of the E-Commerce Directive 15, as well as Section 97A of the Copyright Designs and Patent Act 1988, requires that there is actual knowledge of unlawful activity on behalf of the content or service provider.
In eBay's case, they were served an injunction for sale on its site of illegal merchandise because (long story short) their business model should have led them to identify infringing material. Basically, they advertise things and weren't a passive web host. The particular case was L'Oréal SA and Others v eBay International AG and Others [2009] EWHC 1094 (Ch) if anyone is struggling to get to sleep yet.
They now have a voluntary scheme - the Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) programme where rights holders can inform eBay of infringements.
I'm not sure how quickly they react - I once reported a list of a fake Bach - and I'm pretty sure it went the distance and some sucker ended up with it. Nor sure if it works the same in the US, but I would have thought something similar would be in place.
Why doesn't Bach enforce? Maybe they do more than we are aware. Maybe some organisations don't think it's worth the time and effort, especially if there has been any negative impact through automated identification and false positives. Maybe it's a big old game of whack-a-mole. |
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veery715
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 4313
Location: Ithaca NY
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Or maybe it's "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" approach. Bad (free) publicity is better than none.
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veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2493
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| veery715 wrote: | | Or maybe it's "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" approach. Bad (free) publicity is better than none. |
Not in this case. When unknowing parents buy these TSOs and then they fail, and the tech they get taken too says I cant fix this - the buyer gets mad at Bach, and posts inaccurate statements on social media about poor quality and not honoring warranties. These "products" are out there because buyers ARE gullible enough to think they are getting the real thing and keep buying them.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | veery715 wrote: | | Or maybe it's "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" approach. Bad (free) publicity is better than none. |
Not in this case. When unknowing parents buy these TSOs and then they fail, and the tech they get taken too says I cant fix this - the buyer gets mad at Bach, and posts inaccurate statements on social media about poor quality and not honoring warranties. These "products" are out there because buyers ARE gullible enough to think they are getting the real thing and keep buying them. |
THIS!! I can’t think of anything positive to come out of counterfeiting horns or anything else, everyone except the seller loses.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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veery715
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 4313
Location: Ithaca NY
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | veery715 wrote: | | Or maybe it's "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" approach. Bad (free) publicity is better than none. |
Not in this case. When unknowing parents buy these TSOs and then they fail, and the tech they get taken too says I cant fix this - the buyer gets mad at Bach, and posts inaccurate statements on social media about poor quality and not honoring warranties. These "products" are out there because buyers ARE gullible enough to think they are getting the real thing and keep buying them. |
THIS!! I can’t think of anything positive to come out of counterfeiting horns or anything else, everyone except the seller loses.
Brad |
Despite my comment I actually agree with both of you! The problem as I see it, though, is that Bach (or Conn-Selmer), as an entity, probably just doesn't give a damn about it.
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veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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