Joined: 07 Mar 2010 Posts: 13 Location: Kansas City
Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:00 am Post subject: Taking notes from Wynton's embouchure set: top lip anchor
I have been going through an embouchure change the last few months. I had bilateral Bell's Palsy a few years ago and when I started playing again, I was playing off-center. Eventually I was playing anywhere from 3-6 days a week in jazz, salsa, and funk bands and my lip started hurting so I took a short break and went back to the basics - lip buzzing and a more centered embouchure.
I recently noticed that both Terence Blanchard and Wynton Marsalis, and one of my teachers, anchor the mouthpiece on their top lip and bring in the bottom lip inside the cup. When I tried playing this way I found it's so much easier, at least for me.
I think it's a Stevens-ish embouchure, and the amount of lower lip curl is relative to both the size of your bottom lip and the size of the mouthpiece. For example, relatively smaller mouthpieces will give you more curl, b/c you have to curl your lip more to get it inside the mouthpiece. Also, with big lower lips, you get more preset tension (so it works for people with big lips, like myself). More preset tension makes it easier to play high, as long as your lips are comfortable and can be flexible. This makes the mouthpiece act as a crutch as it kind of presets your lip tension. It makes sense to make the mouthpiece work for us, instead of against us! My sound is more relaxed and all the muscle I am building from lip buzzing is able to be used in the higher register, rather than for second line G. It's pretty simple, just anchor on the top lip, bring in the bottom lip, and blow.
Just wanted to share my experience here, if anyone else has experience with this or wants to mention another thread or method, feel free to do so here. _________________ Listen
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 Posts: 13 Location: Kansas City
Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:13 am Post subject:
Here is a link to the Wynton video I was referring to. You can see him set around the 2:07 mark. If you use the 25% or 50% speed option, it's more obvious.
Here is a link to the Wynton video I was referring to. You can see him set around the 2:07 mark. If you use the 25% or 50% speed option, it's more obvious.
Interestingly, both Wynton and Terence have studied with the legendary Bill Fielder. [/youtube]
I'm curious what Wynton is doing with the ring finger on his right hand @ 1:21
He's Wynton Freakin' Marsalis so he can do whatever the hell he wants but it struck me as odd when I saw the finger off the 3rd valve, almost as though it is supporting the middle finger depressing the second valve.
Joined: 04 Sep 2015 Posts: 13 Location: Oakland, CA
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:51 pm Post subject:
Wow, nice post regarding anchoring on the top lip. I noticed you're in KC as well, I am too. I always had been using too much pressure on the top lip and cutting the inside of my top lip from time to time but could play pretty good jazz. Then I had a major lip injury in 2003 that forced me to relearn how to play with scar tissue on the top lip. I seemed to have more success all of a sudden anchoring on the bottom lip but still not as good as before 2003. But today I just tried to anchor on the top lip again after years of "searching for it" and wow, it was sort of like the good old days of slotting slurs and wide intervals, and better range. I think you may be right about the top lip anchor! It made me want to research it and found your post. Thanks for posting and I can't wait to practice again tomorrow.
Best,
Chuck
So Wynton is anchoring the top lip. Elsewhere in this forum there's a thread about Herseth releasing the top lip. Would these 2 concepts be in opposition? They both appear to be rather accomplished players
I notice he does a very pronounced upper lip manuever - sort of a "rabbit lip" thing and looks like he sort of stretches and tucks his upper lip in.
When I set the mouthpiece most of the feeling of it being in place is how it feels on the top lip, where there's a very definite "notch". The bottom lip is less distinct. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
So Wynton is anchoring the top lip. Elsewhere in this forum there's a thread about Herseth releasing the top lip. Would these 2 concepts be in opposition? They both appear to be rather accomplished players
I think the OP is slightly misguided as to what he is actually doing/what is occurring and calling it "anchoring on the top lip." When we explain the physical, we are trying to describe experience. The focus of one's experience shapes the experience itself. So if I focus on setting my top "set point" before I set my lower "set point" I might describe that as "anchoring on the top lip." But it is possible to achieve the same thing in 100 different experiential ways. It just so happens that "this way", for the OP, achieves repeatable results and there is an obvious sensation that the OP can point to as a guide. I experientially set up in the exact same way the OP describes but I would never refer to it as anchoring.
In short, it is a semantic problem. They are not at opposition with one another in practice, but are at opposition in language. If you watch the video the OP posted of Wynton, you can see him remove pressure in his own way. If you go to 1:07 of the Wynton video, you will understand exactly how Wynton actually sets up as described below...
Now, as far as what Wynton actually does is best uncovered by Charlie Porter (who happens to be a former student of Wynton). Once you see this video you will see it this happen with pros all over the place. If you go to exactly 33:00, you can see him demonstrate all 4 steps in succession. If you go to exactly 13:37 you can see the Pro (Wynton and Doc) demonstration of it. If you want to watch the whole explanation without the fluff go to exactly 12:30. On a personal note, I have tried to set up like this and I just can't do it as well as what I already do...but what I already do looks like he describes. Again, describing experience is difficult.
Joined: 08 Jun 2015 Posts: 25 Location: Washington, DC
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:35 am Post subject:
Wynton is just using a buzzing setup.
https://youtu.be/L7w_GB3Zggk _________________ Bach Bb and C trumpets
Schilke Bb, C, Eb, E, F , G and Picc
Schilke Bb, C, Eb cornets
Schagerl Bb, C and Picc rotors
Yamaha and Schilke Flugels
--------------------------
He is 'describing' a buzzing setup - I doubt that he attempts to actually produce a buzz when he plays.
The 'buzz setup' description and demonstration can help beginners get an idea of how to produce 'first sounds'. But after that, more learning, guidance, and teaching is needed for actual playing setup and procedure. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
--------------------------
He is 'describing' a buzzing setup - I doubt that he attempts to actually produce a buzz when he plays.
The 'buzz setup' description and demonstration can help beginners get an idea of how to produce 'first sounds'. But after that, more learning, guidance, and teaching is needed for actual playing setup and procedure.
Exactly my point. The OP was asking about how his chops were setup. The demo is how HE plays: puts the mouthpiece on the top lip, then forms a buzzing embouchure while mouthpiece in place, then plays. Many players with larger chops play this way. I do too. Different than “walking in” the mouthpiece to a preset embouchure.
I never said or implies he “buzzes” to play. _________________ Bach Bb and C trumpets
Schilke Bb, C, Eb, E, F , G and Picc
Schilke Bb, C, Eb cornets
Schagerl Bb, C and Picc rotors
Yamaha and Schilke Flugels
I found this thread intriguing, so I thought I'd give it a go for a few days. For me the difference is stunning. I don't know whether it is Wynton's approach to setting the mouthpiece on the lips, or just the resultant lowering of its position on the lips when playing (compared to what I have been used to), but notes above the staff are now much easier and secure. At the same time higher notes feel easier to blow, so I'd guess it has opened up my embouchure to some degree. I also notice that both lips tingle a lot more after playing for a few minutes, which I'd guess means they are vibrating more efficiently now. Whatever the reasons/science/semantics etc I'd recommend trying it to anyone unhappy with their current embouchure, in the hope it might work for them too. Many thanks to the OP for starting the thread. _________________ 1975 Selmer Paris Radial 99 trumpet
Phil Parker London Series 1 flugel
Joined: 08 Jun 2015 Posts: 25 Location: Washington, DC
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:30 am Post subject:
AlanK17 wrote:
I found this thread intriguing, so I thought I'd give it a go for a few days. For me the difference is stunning. I don't know whether it is Wynton's approach to setting the mouthpiece on the lips, or just the resultant lowering of its position on the lips when playing (compared to what I have been used to), but notes above the staff are now much easier and secure. At the same time higher notes feel easier to blow, so I'd guess it has opened up my embouchure to some degree. I also notice that both lips tingle a lot more after playing for a few minutes, which I'd guess means they are vibrating more efficiently now. Whatever the reasons/science/semantics etc I'd recommend trying it to anyone unhappy with their current embouchure, in the hope it might work for them too. Many thanks to the OP for starting the thread.
Several players setup the same way. Check out videos of Tine Thing Helseth, or even Jon Faddis. I also have seen a YouTube video with George Rawlings discussing this issue, that of setting on top lip first and then forming the embouchure. _________________ Bach Bb and C trumpets
Schilke Bb, C, Eb, E, F , G and Picc
Schilke Bb, C, Eb cornets
Schagerl Bb, C and Picc rotors
Yamaha and Schilke Flugels
Now, I might be selling Wynton short in the analytical thinking department, but I bet if you had a chance to ask HIM personally he might just say something like, "I don't know.....I just put the horn on my face and PLAY".....an awful lot of really good players I've spoken to over the years kind have just seemed to gravitate toward what works for them personally, without a whole lot of thinking about it.....
Instead of trying to figure out what great players do, I just try to think of how I can make my own chops work with the physics of the instrument to try to sound like those great players.
Our lips must vibrate sympathetic to the standing wave we create by exciting the air molecules in the tubes of our trumpets.
Embouchure arises first from this essential need of centering the fleshy part of our lips onto the rim of the mouthpiece to facilitate this sympathetic vibration necessary to sustain the standing wave.
The next factor determining our embouchure is the structure of our teeth and jaws. How big/small/straight/centered are your incisors? Does your lower jaw protrude or recede from your skull?
Beyond that you have facial musculature above, below, and to the sides of your lips that provide the all-important foundation to support the aperture needed to control the flow of pressurized air.
Going one step further back is the shape of your oral cavity and throat and the minor adjustments you make to your embouchure due to the efficiency or inefficiency of the air passage from your lungs through your neck and into your mouth.
Usually, through trial and error, we gain the knowledge of how to center the mouthpiece on our lips aligned as closely as possible on the x & y axis with lips and central incisors, and on the z axis with the deference to the protrusion or recession of our lower jaws.
Once we figure out how to produce a clean tone efficiently, I think "area51recording" has it right: "just put the horn on [your] face and PLAY." Your subconscious mind will command the rest of the physical adjustments to your embouchure based on what your conscious mind wants the music you make to sound like. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF
Wynton is a type IV, upstream player. You cannot choose your physiology. You play with what you have. If you are trying to learn to play again through palsy, or other damage, thinking out of the box and attempting to play differently is exactly what I would be doing. I wouldn't be concerned about how it looked, only how it sounded and responded on the gig. If you want it to look right, good chance you haven't a hope. If centered works well, good, but it is not a goal.
You mention some things I will address in your post.
Jazz@heart wrote:
I recently noticed that both Terence Blanchard and Wynton Marsalis, and one of my teachers, anchor the mouthpiece on their top lip and bring in the bottom lip inside the cup. When I tried playing this way I found it's so much easier, at least for me.
Continue to do so.
I think it's a Stevens-ish embouchure, and the amount of lower lip curl is relative to both the size of your bottom lip and the size of the mouthpiece.
Wynton plays upstream, I have never heard of him talk about Stevens (an upstream method), but lip curl is determined by muscular activity, not lip size or mouthpiece geometry.
For example, relatively smaller mouthpieces will give you more curl, b/c you have to curl your lip more to get it inside the mouthpiece.
No. This is not unilaterally true. Perhaps true for someone, but most people who talk about learning to play smaller mouthpieces discuss getting the lip 'out of the mouthpiece'. You could consider this "unfurling" as per Lynn Nicholson. As I play as a downstream type I can't speak to the upstream player's experience here, but I haven't read or heard anything like this and I have had quite a few lessons with upstream players. I would be particularly interested if an upstream player commented on this.
Also, with big lower lips, you get more preset tension (so it works for people with big lips, like myself).
No. Tension is related to muscular activity.
More preset tension makes it easier to play high, as long as your lips are comfortable and can be flexible.
Your talk of tension makes me wonder if you are describing something different and using the word "tension". Tension for a lot of players is the reason high notes don't work.
This makes the mouthpiece act as a crutch as it kind of presets your lip tension.
The mouthpiece does not preset tension. I could see a poorly fitting piece causing tension as you try to adapt, as well as mouthpiece pressure modulating lip tension - perhaps you mean this?
It makes sense to make the mouthpiece work for us, instead of against us!
Wholeheartedly agree - get something that suits your face, is comfortable to play, enables you to sound as you want for the repertoire you are playing.
My sound is more relaxed and all the muscle I am building from lip buzzing is able to be used in the higher register, rather than for second line G. It's pretty simple, just anchor on the top lip, bring in the bottom lip, and blow.
So long as it sounds good, the semantic issues I have above don't matter - other than for potential viewers of this thread, the younger players, who may not be able to discern for themselves.
A comment on chop strength (pertinent as it is to this thread) made to me in a lesson 6 years ago with one of my favourite trumpet players; the best lesson I have ever had:
"You have really strong chops."
"That isn't a compliment. Your air is awful."
I have started to understand this statement from the other side of the fence... well... getting there. It isn't "air power" nor is it "chop strength" - it is a delicate balance of both. On both fronts it is less than you may expect.
Check out Dolf's (Jim Pandolfi) interviews on youtube, and Peter Bond. These players are truly inspiring.
Just wanted to share my experience here, if anyone else has experience with this or wants to mention another thread or method, feel free to do so here.
As for the buzzing stuff - that's just a way to help you form and prepare a vibrating surface/embouchure. Look at the etymology of the French word "embouchure":
em: into
bouche: mouth
emboucher: to put in, or to the mouth
s'emboucher: discharge by the mouth
....
embouchure: placement of the mouth on a wind instrument
There ought to be a formation for the placement, and there ought to be a discharge (air) for the creation of sound.
The level of tension is different between lip buzzing and playing. I can't think of a single buzzing method that suggests you use the same tension and effort freebuzzing as you do playing - you have to create so much resistance to freebuzz which is not necessary while playing (the instrument will do this for you), while the formation is typically beneficial. You do have to form your lips in a way that is condusive to playing when free buzzing, and no doubt that is why it is prolifically taught.
Some of the best players I know cannot free buzz. It is not an essential skill. Some players learn to play much too tense due to free buzzing, hence the anti-buzzing teachers. I believe it is right, for the right person. I don't think semantic arguments do any good. Personally, I tend to let the leadpipe form my embouchure, and any adjustments are all sound/timbre/tonally lead. _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael / Bach_Again - I reckon you have some insights to share here that you've alluded to but not fully spelled out, and I would love to hear them!
I'd be happy to talk more on specific points, but I think the videos I shared are a much more valuable resource - I appreciate the encouragement however!
Ultimately, while having an inquisitive mind for playing is extremely important, sometimes you just have to boil everything down to - does it sound good & does it feel good. "Don't f*** up the tone" - Pandolfi
I struggle to get my students to listen more objectively to themselves - I encourage recording as a means to do this, and to learn to honestly compare their sound to that of the artist they admire... the practice room can be a great deceiver... like the echo chamber effect... I think one of the great ways to improve is to learn to hear objectively, and to listen for the "it" component of the great player's sounds, being aware of that starts the cogs turning.
Pandolfi talks about this (much better than me):
Quote:
"it's the ring in the sound that makes the chops work great, its NOT the chops working great that puts the ring in the sound. You know what puts the ring in your sound? Willpower. If you can hear it, you can do it. If you can't hear it, you can't do it."
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