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Robert P
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 Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Taking notes from Wynton's embouchure set: top lip ancho |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
To suggest one can magically solve a technical problem just by doing more work on attacks and longtones strikes me as a bit naive. |
Not what I was saying - it was proposed that playing the horn necessarily imposes "baggage". I was using attacks and long tones as an example that's devoid of baggage.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| JoseLindE4 wrote: | Example 1:
In grad school, I became of an unwanted extra noise in my repeated articulations. If I would tongue several notes in a row, there was a subtle sound that shouldn't be there. My professor observed that that extra noise was connected with a strange motion in my face. Telling me to not do that, or to be still, or anything else changed nothing. The motion was part of how I played. Taking that away meant that I couldn't play. I was told that it could take quite some time to fix...
That afternoon in the practice room, I realized exactly when and why the motion was occurring. I couldn't stop it when playing, I couldn't stop it when playing, but I knew the cause. |
Why was the motion occurring?
| Quote: | | I could play lips alone without the motion since it was far enough removed from the horn. I can buzz without concern for the result and just focus on whatever goal I've set out. I can experiment. |
"Far enough removed from the horn" - what does that mean?
What goal did you set out and how did you decide on that goal?
| Quote: | | Telling someone to do something very different than their typical approach can sometimes seem (to them) as absurd as telling them to blow in the other end. It just doesn't work. |
Not just tell them, it needs to be re-trained. Did your teacher - who btw sounds close to useless - at any time suggest single, light, relaxed attacks, as slow as necessary to not do this tic? I.e. - get set up, get the air pressure in place, then just withdraw the tongue. Or even slow breath attacks - to get you used to starting notes without the twitch/tic? You say "all the articulation training in the world wouldn't have helped" - it doesn't sound like much was tried. I'll betcha the right articulation work with the horn would have.
| Quote: | | I then added the rim with a visualizer, then the mouthpiece, the leadpipe alone, and finally the horn. |
I don't see that you've explained specifically *how* the free-buzzing made a difference - same as my next response below. Why wouldn't eliminating the step of free-buzzing and just starting with the visualizer work?
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Last edited by Robert P on Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:34 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| JoseLindE4 wrote: |
Example 2:
For most of my professional life, I've had a hard cap of around G above high C. In the past 5 years or so, through practice with the leadpipe (a la Javier Gonzales, playing between partials), and with a visualizer, I have discovered an extra octave and a half. Doing these strange things has given me space to explore and discover. Trumpet is easier through doing these things. These drills make me aware of a more efficient way of playing which I can then work to apply to the full horn. |
That at least involves the mouthpiece or a simulation thereof which by itself is very different than free-buzzing - from your description I don't see that free-buzzing was involved.
| Quote: | | Example 3:
I came into college with a very broken method of tone production. Once the heavy playing load of ensembles and practice hit, I started experiencing regular pain and developed a semi-permanent wound on the inside of my upper lip. It wasn't sustainable. Beginning with lip buzzing and slowly adding more parts (visualizer, mouthpiece, leadpipe, then horn) I was able to relearn a healthy approach to the horn. This approach has formed the core of my fundamental practice ever since. For several years prior, I knew that my approach was broken, but I had no way to fix it. It was only through beginning with the buzz that I was able to find solid ground in my playing. If buzzing was exactly like the horn, it wouldn't have worked. |
I don't see any specifics as to how free-buzzing facilitated this. Without even seeing it you *had* to re-adjust even to go to the visualizer. The fact that you did free-buzzing isn't in of itself a compelling demonstration as to how or whether it was actually useful.
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Aj
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Referring to the OP and embouchure design. In pursuit of a better embouchure (more stamina, free and open sound) I feel you need to find someone who has worked at this themselves. Always referring to expert players who often have many things going on naturally since they started is asking them to reverse engineer something and explain it to you. How has reverse engineering of legendary vintage horns worked? Not overly well! Dont get me wrong, you can get valuable tips from these naturals, best practice approaches or things to try out.
Malte Burba explains this in his book Brass Master Class when he discusses the ‘somersault’ kid analogy. Many excellent embouchure design and isometric excersises in his video.
I am a down stream player with larger lips doing regular big band gigs and coming home icing my top lip. The ‘pinch, press and pray method’. Until I discovered Greg Spence’s Mystery to Mastery. This guy has developed an embouchure system that is straight forward and makes sense. It is endorsed by many great players and he has presented at ITG. Go check his videos on Youtube.
In a year I went from painful and limited High Cs to playing to High Fs in the gig and finishing fresh. No other system explains it like Greg’s and develops the embouchure and sound in such an amazing way. For me anyway.
I often set the mouthpiece lightly on the top lip and pull down. This helps with keeping the fat top lip close to the teeth and prevents from too much ‘red’ intrusion into the mouthpiece. This embouchure idea also appears in Jerome Callet’s early book (before TCE) in which one slides up from double pedals. I feel this approach works for those who have full upper lips. Thin top lip players, need not apply. 
As for the ‘to lip buzz or not to buzz’, Mystery to Mastery is a no lip buz system however I recognises that lip buzzing can be a great isometric exercise. Best to debate if and when it should be used teaching a beginner or developing student imho. Being in an isolated city I see many students taught by outdated methods or their major embouchure issues ignored. They cant get out of the staff after a couple of years and often lose heart and quit.
Ive now taken you on a journey outside the US, across to Germany then down to Australia and back to NY. Hope you enjoyed the virtual trip.
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steve0930
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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hi AJ
| Quote: | | I am a down stream player with larger lips doing regular big band gigs and coming home icing my top lip. The ‘pinch, press and pray method’. Until I discovered Greg Spence’s Mystery to Mastery. |
I discovered Greg a year in as a player - bought the book, started the course (Adagio stage if I remember) - but for me this was the wrong road - the "Ahhh Ooooh" approach took me down a downstream "open" embouchure set up. Now I am doing the almost exact opposite.
Greg is very clear about the importance of not forcing the notes and I'm a big fan of that - my mindset is the notes above the staff are the easy ones, which for example I warm up with at the start / end of the session.
I never found the Embouchure teacher who could have got me going in the right direction from the get go - but personally I enjoy working things out for myself - "cracking the code" - I'm not sure where my development is taking me but I am fairly sure it won't be where anyone else has been before - because your optimal set up is going to be unique to you.
Teachers, of the Trumpet, or anything else for that matter, are invaluable, but the the role of the Teacher is to ask the questions - the best answers, I suggest, will always come from you.
Cheers and stay safe Steve in Helsinki
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Hello All
Just getting away from a discussion about lip buzzing; I looked at Wynton's set up (setting the mouthpiece to his lips) His set up looks easy enough, no deliberate manipulation of his face or lips. But the question is this, & I believe I saw this in Charlie Porter's video. After he sets the mouthpiece, does he put his tongue through his lips to set the aperture open? And when I say open, not open to drive a Mac truck through it. Rather just a slight bit open rather than the lips actually touching. (In other words, starting with the lips touching & letting the air stream open them, or starting with the lips slightly open from the get-go). |
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Irving
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| If Wynton puts his tongue between his lips before he plays, it could be that he is lubricating them. He certainly wouldn't keep that large an aperture opening while playing. |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | After he sets the mouthpiece, does he put his tongue through his lips to set the aperture open? |
If you watch Charlie Porter's video again, you will see that the tongue through the lips is indeed for lubrication as Irving states.
If your aperture is "open" as you are implying, you wouldn't get sound, only air. Lips touch and then the air pressure opens them (initiating the oscillation). |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| I thought as much, & I'll have to watch that section of Charlie Porter's video again. Reason I asked also (& not to start a war here), is that I recently read a seven page post here that went back & forth to what Pops advocated (lips touching, closed embouchure/aperture), versus what Bobby Shew advocated, (open embouchure/aperture)? Both gentlemen being top notch experts in their field. So I was wondering what Wynton's set up was like in that regard, not seeing what was going on behind the mouthpiece after seeing him set up. |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | I thought as much, & I'll have to watch that section of Charlie Porter's video again. Reason I asked also (& not to start a war here), is that I recently read a seven page post here that went back & forth to what Pops advocated (lips touching, closed embouchure/aperture), versus what Bobby Shew advocated, (open embouchure/aperture)? |
Not to start a war here (either), but I wouldn't concern yourself with aperture too much. Aperture is mostly "sensation"-based. I haven't read their thoughts but Pops and Shew may be describing the exact same thing in two radically different ways. Ultimately, anything you read on "aperture" is going to be that player's perception of what they think they are doing. Try things here and there, but don't concern yourself having to be more "open" or more "closed" because neither sensation is "more correct." |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks & yep, I get that. To your point, it's relative to whom ever is describing what they do as an individual. What I'm doing now, is discovering that I set my embouchure as if I'm going to spit out a rice kernel, which sets my corners slightly in toward the mouthpiece & slightly snug to my teeth. Then I se the mouthpiece 50/50 with slightly more pressure on my bottom lip, freeing up my top lip to vibrate more freely. (Lucky for me, my teeth line up naturally, with no over or under bite. So I'm not having to thrust my jaw forward). What I'm doing next, is what I think Wynton & Doc are doing in Charlie's video, that being putting their tongue through the lips not to set the aperture open, but rather to wet the lips & just let their embouchure & related aperture "settle in" to where they want it, with the lips slightly touching again after retracting their tongue. If you'll note, the word slightly in my description is the key word to all of this. No deliberate or forced manipulations. I realize as well that setting up is also an individual thing, but any suggestions to that approach would be welcome. Thanks. |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | Thanks & yep, I get that. To your point, it's relative to whom ever is describing what they do as an individual. What I'm doing now, is . . . but any suggestions to that approach would be welcome |
All of it sounds reasonable and you have good thoughts on it. I always enjoy injecting logic into what I do: so, one thing to think about when it comes to "setting up" is that when you breathe (through the mouth) in the middle of a passage, often we don't have a lot of time. This means that the act of setting up CAN happen nearly "instantly" and almost concurrently with the beginning of the (next) attack. As such, we should be able to set our mouthpiece in its position and technically "not" set up until we are about to play our note (i.e., upon exhalation).
Just a thought. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in things during practice, that we forget to take a step back and do it how we would perform. Practice, in my opinion, should only be about 30% hyper-critical and 70% in a "trusting" place. |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks. Glad to hear it seems as if I'm getting a good basic embouchure down. Breathing correctly & endurance are next. With that, range will come. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | ... What I'm doing now, is discovering that I set my embouchure as if I'm going to spit out a rice kernel, which sets my corners slightly in toward the mouthpiece & slightly snug to my teeth. Then I se the mouthpiece 50/50 with slightly more pressure on my bottom lip, freeing up my top lip to vibrate more freely. (Lucky for me, my teeth line up naturally, with no over or under bite. So I'm not having to thrust my jaw forward). ... |
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Perhaps my feeling of 'spit out a rice kernel' differs from yours - I don't have that sensation for 'set-up'. Just a fairly relaxed 'mmm' lip contact.
Also I think that using a set-up (without rim pressure) that causes the lips to be 'snug' to the teeth might be inducing too much muscle tension. The application of rim pressure should be enough to give the needed lip-to-tooth contact without forcing snug contact during set-up.
Regarding not having to 'thrust jaw forward', that is fine - but it is important to keep control of the jaw to achieve and maintain lower lip pressure. The total pressure amount and how it is distributed (upper / lower) changes depending on the notes being played.
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Yep, I get that Jay. That's why I'm getting down to a basic, not contorted or forced embouchure, seeing exactly how much if any pressure is required asidefrom the rim pressure you describe. Trying to see what is better for me as far as sound & endurance. Conceptually, of course the less pressure created that may not be necessary, the better. And in my description, if I go in that direction, I am talking about a miniscule amount of pressure to do that. Just contact. |
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