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Red-rot--at what point does it matter?


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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
It's a good question, as some oils use alcohols as thinners and paraffin as a lubricant, too. I know that alcohol absorbs water and I think paraffin might a little. If the oil has detergents in it, they act to lower the hydro-phobic qualities of the oil.
www.answers.com wrote:
The solubility of paraffin wax depends on the particular solvent. Paraffin wax, which is a petroleum by-product that is refined and a solid, will not dissolve in water or alcohol. However, it is soluble in carbon tetrachloride, chloroform, benzene, and ether.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glissando wrote:
Does anybody have any actual information (proof) that putting valve oil down the lead pipe actually helps prevent red rot?

Hoping for actual information here, not just opinions that don't have a strong basis.

I ask because I, too, have oiled the lead pipe for years -- but water and oil don't mix, so I always wonder whether there's really much coating of the brass going on. Even if you add the oil before playing (when there should be less moisture, presumably providing more dry brass for the oil to adhere to), it seems a lot to expect a few randomly dripped drops of oil to coat everything very well.

And then even if you do get some coating to begin with, one imagines that the oil would get diluted as you play -- adding moisture from your breath, draining the system with the water key, and repeating the process again and again. Seems like the drops of oil would be progressively diluted, and much of those few drops of oil would quickly go out the spit valve.


I can give the most recent example, which is not peer-reviewed: My Calicchio has a #9 pipe that John Duda made and that I put on in place of the original. After a time, the inside was green to the point where I acid-cleaned the pipe. Then I remembered the old oil-down-the-pipe trick which I used to recommend. So much for memory. No more green inside.

-Lionel
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would it be difficult to coat leadpipe from inside with a thin layer of silver, copper (or a more inert material) using either vacuum vapor deposition or an electrolytic process?

Alternatively, why not make a leadpipe from red/gold brass, copper, or silver (any material that is either resilient to dezincification or does not have any zinc at all)? These materials are relatively affordable, considering the weight of the leadpipe and cost per unit of weight (currently, no more than USD $17 ~ $18 per 1 ounce of silver).
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grune
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
Would it be difficult to coat leadpipe from inside with a thin layer of silver, copper (or a more inert material) using either vacuum vapor deposition or an electrolytic process?

Difficult only in the sense the plating would create more steps in the manufacturing process: as each tuning pipe would need to be manually honed to fit properly after the plating process. I'm sure the mass-produced brands would be loathe to do so.

Another aspect relates to the "purists": currently, there would be no way to ensure the plating would be uniform the entire lead pipe to the micro tolerances advertised. I doubt such variance would affect any aspect for the instrument, but undoubtedly the brands would use this as an excuse.


Alternatively, why not make a leadpipe from red/gold brass, copper, or silver (any material that is either resilient to dezincification or does not have any zinc at all)? These materials are relatively affordable, considering the weight of the leadpipe and cost per unit of weight (currently, no more than USD $17 ~ $18 per 1 ounce of silver).


The metal used for the leadpipe affects the sound significantly. The best metal against bacteria and "rot" is surgical stainless steel: but the sound from this is awful to most ears. Sterling silver has been used, and is effective if cleaned regularly; but is quite soft and needs care against damage from knocks, and is rather costly to machine and attach to the horn. Sterling affects the tone, and so other parts of the horn would need to be re-engineered to produce the classical tone demanded.

Until we consumers demand more from the manufacturers, and perhaps boycott, we will be stuck with what the brands offer us.

To address the OP, imho rot would be significant when it affects the integrity of the metal, or the sound of the instrument. Regardless, I would replace any rotted parts, assuming the horn is of worthwhile value.



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grune
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="yourbrass"]
Glissando wrote:


I can give the most recent example, which is not peer-reviewed: My Calicchio has a #9 pipe that John Duda made and that I put on in place of the original. After a time, the inside was green to the point where I acid-cleaned the pipe. Then I remembered the old oil-down-the-pipe trick which I used to recommend. So much for memory. No more green inside.
-Lionel


Hmmm, the oil we use is hydrophobic, meaning it emulsifies upon contact with water, meaning it reacts with water to become thick. The thick layer will be somewhat sticky, which then defeats the goal to prevent a build-up of crud. Besides, oil in the leadpipe could lead to health issues over a long term: and such was certainly the case long ago when oils were "aromatics".

What I have used for +40 years is: 90% alcohol; and a water rinse. /1/ Daily. Pour a small amount of alcohol into the mouthpiece, then blow air through the horn. The air will carry the alcohol through the horn. Then put away in your case. Next day, empty the water keys. This will keep bacteria at bay. /2/ Weekly. I go to my shower, hold my horn vertical bell upwards, and direct a flow of warm water into the bell. The horn will fill with water and water will run out at the mouthpiece end. Press the valves to flow water to the pipes. Stop when you think ready, blow out the water via the keys, and done. These efforts will keep your horn very clean inside. good luck.

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Last edited by grune on Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:22 am; edited 2 times in total
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder why Ren Schilke recommended putting oil down the leadpipes of the horns he made if it is such a bad idea.
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grune
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
I wonder why Ren Schilke recommended putting oil down the leadpipes of the horns he made if it is such a bad idea.


uh, you met with Shilke to discuss his point? You may note I have not contested his point.

Regardless, doubtful you would like my mouthpiece, and in same vein you may dislike my approach. Fair is fair.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does that method still work if I pour some alcohol into me and then blow air down the pipe?

I think Schilke advocated very frequent cleaning also, so I doubt any build-up was contemplated.

Bottom line is that red rot matters when it structurally compromises the pipe, or when it (either by a hole, or simply an unfortunately located pit) alters the performance of the instrument, or when it alters the playing characteristics (such as resistance) such that it bothers you.

Student lines often, and some serious pro horns also, use red brass to minimize the zinc available to corrode away. Sterling pipes and nickel pipes have also been used on many horns over the years. Each alternate metal has an effect on frequencies reflected internally or dampened, and thus the rest of the horn is designed in conjunction with such a material selection. Placing an alternate material pipe on a horn designed for a yellow brass one will inevitably alter the character of the horn (sometimes desirably, sometimes not).
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Irving
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I buy a used horn and notice that the previous owner never cleaned the leadpipe, I'll used a brass wire brush to get the hardened material off. Somebody here mentioned a gun brush. As long as it is brass, and you don't have advanced red rot, it should be ok. Don't use a steel brush since it is harder than brass, and could damage the lead pipe.

The easiest way to prevent red rot is to swab out the leadpipe and tuning crook after each playing session. Don't pack up your horn when it is wet! Always use a swab and the leadpipe will last thelife of the horn.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most good modern oils are designed to not leave a residue, so there should be no problem with oil down the leadpipe. Your valve slides are getting the same treatment whether you like it or not, as oil from the valves gets into them as you play.

I always wondered why nobody tried lacquering the inside of the leadpipe. It would be a thin layer so should not affect the sound much.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grune wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
I wonder why Ren Schilke recommended putting oil down the leadpipes of the horns he made if it is such a bad idea.


uh, you met with Shilke to discuss his point? You may note I have not contested his point.

Uh, if I had I wouldn’t be wondering why he recommended it, would I?

You should note I never said you contested his point, I just asked a logical question after reading all the negatives associated with the practice.

You might not wonder but I do, fair is fair.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Does that method still work if I pour some alcohol into me and then blow air down the pipe?
Works for me...at least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Cheers!
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Does that method still work if I pour some alcohol into me and then blow air down the pipe?
Works for me...at least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Cheers!

Speaking of sticking to it, if you have ever walked on a bar floor you will note that the floor gets rather sticky if drinks have been spilled.

The same will happen to your horn.

So only drink the unadulterated hard stuff.
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