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ZardiChar
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 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: Question for those who've been challenged in Big Bands. |
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| Hello! I'm new to the forums😀. I play second chair In my high school big band, but I'm really considering challenging the player above me as I personally feel I can lead the band better. My question for the Lead Players who've been challenged is what song(s) have you been challenged on? I plan to gain insight from this on what charts to listen to and consider challenging the Lead player on next week after our gig. Thanks! |
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Ed Hernandez
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hi and welcome to the forum. I just have a couple of questions since you stated you feel you can lead the band better. 1. Have you mastered the 2nd chair in support of the lead? (Don't be blindsided by the 3rd or 4th chair wanting your spot either); and 2. What have you done to assist the lead guy/gal in getting more proficient at lead playing. It's all about flourishing where you're planted and serving others for the good of the team. Just my 2 cents.
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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When you say "lead the band better" do you mean you think you are the better player, or do you mean that the person is bad at guiding/leading the section?
In the bands I played with in high school the director had a defined challenge format. So that would be the first place I would check.
After that I would suggest that you challenge on the music you are playing. |
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ZardiChar
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | When you say "lead the band better" do you mean you think you are the better player, or do you mean that the person is bad at guiding/leading the section?
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yes I'd say i am the better player. |
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Question for those who've been challenged in Big Bands. |
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| ZardiChar wrote: | | what song(s) have you been challenged on? |
It's been a long time, but back in the day, we challenged on whatever was currently in the book, challenger's choice.
There is some strategy involved in choosing a piece you think will help the band director differentiate between the two of you. But I think the best approach is to just pick something representative of the requirements of that chair, play your best, and let the band director decide.
I never told myself I wanted to challenge someone because I though he wasn't good—I tried to respect his ability and just worked hard to see if I could play better. The challenge system can benefit the band by pushing members to play better, but it works best if there's an attitude of respect and goodwill toward each other.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:53 am Post subject: |
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In support of a couple of comments above, Larry Ford, a friend of mine from UNT and the AF, and First Call L.A. studio player, lead with Hermann, Kenton, and many others, once told me he thought the most important player in the section was the second player. He had to be right on, with impeccable intonation, style matching, etc. and the ability to support the first. Something to consider.
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TKSop
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Question for those who've been challenged in Big Bands. |
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| dstdenis wrote: |
The challenge system can benefit the band by pushing members to play better, but it works best if there's an attitude of respect and goodwill toward each other. |
Indeed - the other player could work their butt off to take the seat back, or someone else may see that that's how things work and decide to challenge you... The last thing you want is to set a precedent that it's a less than respectful process - it's always worth considering things from the other side, especially in cases where you could easily become the other side |
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Question for those who've been challenged in Big Bands. |
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| ZardiChar wrote: | | Hello! I'm new to the forums😀. I play second chair In my high school big band, but I'm really considering challenging the player above me as I personally feel I can lead the band better. My question for the Lead Players who've been challenged is what song(s) have you been challenged on? I plan to gain insight from this on what charts to listen to and consider challenging the Lead player on next week after our gig. Thanks! |
" I can lead the band better" - in what way?? Are you familiar with the different ways of phrasing music from different "eras"? Do you have a better high register? Are you a "communicative" guy able to kinda "gather" the section? Your sound -is it of the kind that heightens the melodic output/color of the band/section? Your reading abilities (incl sight-reading)? Able to phrase with that sometimes elusive triplet feeling - making the other fellas go with you? The term "Lead" means exactly that!
Able to shine on say "Trumpet Blues"? Or "Lil´Darlin´? That is songs requiring very different attitudes?
Of course you may be the one more suited!
Might add that I (having played lead a lot during the seventies and eigthies) in an new band, as a temporary third part replacement) was asked flat out if I could take part 1 - by the lead trumpet guy. So I did and everybody got happy.
In your case however - one could predict some social awkwardness or???
In itself quite a situation - some lead trumpeters might possess lacking insight...
So delicate business indeed!
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jbeights
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| Ed Hernandez wrote: | | Hi and welcome to the forum. I just have a couple of questions since you stated you feel you can lead the band better. 1. Have you mastered the 2nd chair in support of the lead? (Don't be blindsided by the 3rd or 4th chair wanting your spot either); and 2. What have you done to assist the lead guy/gal in getting more proficient at lead playing. It's all about flourishing where you're planted and serving others for the good of the team. Just my 2 cents. |
I find this advice something that has come with wisdom and much experience. Well said! I would not have thought this way as a high school player, however I do so much more now.
I would add one more element to this that I have learned over the years. This is a journey between you and your instrument. I have found that I if only focus on this my personal capabilities as a players start to become so clearly better than some I have played with in the past that the opportunities for advancement come on their own. I have been playing first chair/part in every ensemble I have ever been in all my life until the last few years where I have played 2nd and 3rd part in order to help out certain groups. I have found second and third parts are in many ways much more challenging and have helped me become a much better all around player.
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Tyler Alexander
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ZardiChar
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | I can lead the band better" - in what way?? Are you familiar with the different ways of phrasing music from different "eras"? Do you have a better high register? Are you a "communicative" guy able to kinda "gather" the section? Your sound -is it of the kind that heightens the melodic output/color of the band/section? Your reading abilities (incl sight-reading)? Able to phrase with that sometimes elusive triplet feeling - making the other fellas go with you? The term "Lead" means exactly that!
Able to shine on say "Trumpet Blues"? Or "Lil´Darlin´? That is songs requiring very different attitudes?
Of course you may be the one more suited!
So delicate business indeed! |
When I say I believe I'm the better player, I mean this for a set of reasons. The first, is that despite being second I happen to be the one controlling the style and the section. I have the Highest Range of the Section, playing to a High F at the Fortissimo Volume.
| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | In your case however - one could predict some social awkwardness or???
In itself quite a situation - some lead trumpeters might possess lacking insight... |
How might it seem awkward? |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| ZardiChar wrote: | | When I say I believe I'm the better player, I mean this for a set of reasons. The first, is that despite being second I happen to be the one controlling the style and the section. I have the Highest Range of the Section, playing to a High F at the Fortissimo Volume. |
What does having the strongest Double F have to do with having the best musicianship?
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ZardiChar
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Is certainly an advantage. |
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ZardiChar
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | ZardiChar wrote: | | When I say I believe I'm the better player, I mean this for a set of reasons. The first, is that despite being second I happen to be the one controlling the style and the section. I have the Highest Range of the Section, playing to a High F at the Fortissimo Volume. |
What does having the strongest Double F have to do with having the best musicianship? |
It's certainly an advantage. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Depends on the context, ZardiChar. If he's missing notes or playing them weakly, it can make a difference. But if his playing range is strong for what he has to play, an "extra" prowess may not then trump musicianship. It's the overall results that count out front.
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Seymor B Fudd
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| ZardiChar wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | | ZardiChar wrote: | | When I say I believe I'm the better player, I mean this for a set of reasons. The first, is that despite being second I happen to be the one controlling the style and the section. I have the Highest Range of the Section, playing to a High F at the Fortissimo Volume. |
What does having the strongest Double F have to do with having the best musicianship? |
It's certainly an advantage. |
Hmmmm! When I wrote "awkwardness" I ment the very process of you having the lead man realize he has to move. How do you predict his reaction? Telling you "I never thought you would ask" Or? Will he/she get offended? A band is also a social context and you gotta have some sensitivity in order to know when things are possible or not. Maybe leadchair man does want to step down, maybe not. How to negotiate that?
You controlling the style and the section from your 2:nd chair 
Ain´t that suggesting some oddity in the performances? How about the director/leader/conductor - what are his opinions? I can tell you that if my sectionmate nr 2 clearly ran the show I would get thorougly pissed off (sorry for the expression but that´s my gut reaction). By the way "ran the show" is not an apt term - a section should be balanced. Playing lead absolutely requires a solid base - no one is supposed to "stick out".
I completely agree with kehaulani - a formidable high F is no sign of musicianship although a high F of course might be very effective in a song, adequately placed rhythmically and delivered musically.
Now, please realize we´re not your enemies, only trying to help you -you asked some questions and you got some answers, all with the best intentions.
We are not aware of the specific situation in your band - maybe it would be a good thing for all involved if you were to play lead - but as you can see, things might be/get complicated. At least from an outside perspective.
I´ve played in bands since 1959, big bands since 1968 and I can tell you out of experience - there is a lot going on socially 
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ZardiChar
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah I guess I can see the awkwardness in the process, as I know the Lead's been aware I may challenge him. |
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| ZardiChar wrote: | | Yeah I guess I can see the awkwardness in the process, as I know the Lead's been aware I may challenge him. |
It can be less awkward if you treat others with respect and goodwill. Be the kind of person you'd like to have around. Challenge the lead player and play your best. Let your playing do your talking for you. If you play better, then you deserve the chair, no questions asked. He should recognize that and step aside graciously. And vice versa: if he plays better, you should tip your hat and say, "nice playing—it's yours." If each handles himself with class and respect, a potentially awkward situation can go more smoothly for everyone.
By the way, if I were your band director, I wouldn't necessarily award the spot to the player who can ping the highest note. I'd be much more interested in finding out who can play with great style, accuracy, consistency, and reliability. Range and stamina are part of the evaluation, but there's so much more.
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TKSop
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| ZardiChar wrote: | | Yeah I guess I can see the awkwardness in the process, as I know the Lead's been aware I may challenge him. |
Has he given you any response to your possible challenge?
For instance:
Is he open to changing places?
Is he open to the challenge in the first place?
How confident of keeping the seat is he?
How sure are you that you'll win the audition?
Having a nice high F is nice and all, but as others have pointed out it's not the be-all and end-all - what other strengths do you have that you feel make you the best candidate for the lead chair?
What strengths does the other guy have that make him the better candidate for it?
Is it possible that you're looking too much at one aspect of playing (range) and extrapolating that out to a kind of "I can play higher than you, that means I'm better than you" kind of mentality (it's okay, we all know people like that... we like them better when they grow out of it).
There sometimes seems to be something of a cycle of Dunning-Kruger effects - the better you get, the more confident you get, then you progress and realise how much you don't know and can't do... and then you improve more, learn more and gain confidence from that progress... and then you improve more and learn more again, then realise that there's even more you don't know.... and on and on and on.
It's easy to lose sight of how we stack up to other players if we become stuck in our own little cycle and don't get to see other players pushed beyond it.
So for example...
If your lead player is capable of a lot more than is on the book, but has the taste to stick to what's written and not try showing off (not saying this IS the case, only that it CAN be) you might get an illusion that they're not capable of more than that - when in truth, they're just confident enough to not feel the need to show off.
IF this were the case, you could wind up challenging someone and not having any real idea of just how good they might be - it happens. |
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TKSop
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| ZardiChar wrote: |
When I say I believe I'm the better player, I mean this for a set of reasons. The first, is that despite being second I happen to be the one controlling the style and the section. |
Controlling the style in what sense?
I've met players who thought they were controlling the style, but in truth all they were doing was overexaggerating everything and while they were clearly thinking about style they were in fact playing with anything but... unfortunately, it's easier for the other players to follow than to ignore.
| Quote: | | I have the Highest Range of the Section, playing to a High F at the Fortissimo Volume. |
Great - a sign that your technique is developing nicely...
But does the book call for it?
And how's your accuracy in that register (say between high C and high F)? And for that matter how's your range above that (or do you hit a hard ceiling at F)? |
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