Question for those who've been challenged in Big Bands.

trickg · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:08 am Post subject:

I'm reading down through this thread, and I guess I don't get what the fuss is about. For starters, in the big bands I played in, there was never a "challenge" process to try to oust a certain player, take their chair, or whatever. People played the book they were on because that's what they were told or hired to do, egos were left at home, and we were typically playing the part best suited to our abilities.

Outside of high school and my time at the Armed Forces School of Music, I have always held down 3rd and 4th books in big bands, and I've always been perfectly happy to do so. Those are utility section parts that require a good ear for intonation and the ability to match the style and phrasing of the lead player. I'm a good support player - my ability to listen in and lock in to other players is one of my strengths as a musician, and my ego doesn't need to see a "1" on the part in order for me to be happy playing the part I'm on. I actually take a lot of satisfaction from the fact that I know I am a good section player.

I'm not sure how it's structured in your HS jazz band - in professional big bands, the 2nd book player is also the solo player, and it's possible that your director is willing to take a minor hit of not having you on the lead book so that they CAN have you on the solo book.

It also sounds like you may be falling prey to one of the classic blunders of the high school player, and that's the misguided belief that stronger chops and more range makes you "better." It doesn't. Not even a little bit. You may also have weaknesses you aren't fully aware that you have. You may have an awful sense of time and tempo (most people who are afflicted with this sadly don't realize it) or you might have a poor sense of phrasing, (people afflicted with this often don't realize this one either) or you might not have a good ear for intonation. These are things I see all the time and most of the time, those people simply aren't aware that they have those issues.

Ultimately it's going to depend on you. Can your ego handle playing a part that says "2" on it instead of "1?" Remember - this is a big band - EVERY part is essential.

Also keep in mind that there may be some unintended consequences if you do challenge for the 1st chair.

1.) You may lose the challenge - can you handle it if you do?
2.) Are you friends with the 1st player? If you challenge and win, it could strain the friendship. It could strain the relationship even if you DON'T win.
3.) If you challenge and win, you may come off looking like an ego-maniacal @$$h01e to other people in the band, and you'll lose respect of people who currently like and respect you.

Keep us posted on what you decide to do, and whatever the outcome happens to be.
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bnsd · Veteran Member Joined: 17 Jun 2014 Posts: 126

as second chair in multiple bands, I found some things to be true:

You can sure make things better (or not) for the lead player. It's a fine line between supporting him, and taking over from him. Make sure you are supporting him. If his "style" is different than you would take, he's playing lead. Either discuss it or play it his way... the director should be able to sort it out if it's wrong.

Higher range does not necessarily make a better lead payer, but it sure doesn't hurt.

I have ALWAYS played some lead charts, even while playing other chairs. The director and the other musicians KNOW who is playing better. The whole "challenge" for chairs kind of rubs me wrong; it's a section. If you play well as a section, it shows. If the lead player is not leading, though, and "challenge" is what your school has in place, challenge him on a piece from your charts that you feel highlights your advantages.

kehaulani · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:47 am Post subject:

Patrick just reminded me of something. I used to play in a big band that went between me and another player. Finally, one day I asked the lead player why they couldn't decide between the other guy and me. He said that the other guy didn't really swing but was pretty reliable, technically, while I swung, but was more inconsistent technically. For whatever that means to you.
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jiarby · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2011 Posts: 1188

if you think he sucks as a lead player you REALLY are gonna hate him when his job is supporting YOU playing second. A disgruntled second player can really make a lead player sound bad. that's probably what he is thinking! LOL

bnsd · Veteran Member Joined: 17 Jun 2014 Posts: 126

That's kind of what i was trying to say...a 2nd chair that isn't really supporting you can make life Hell,

trickg · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:34 am Post subject:

I've always known that standing next to the lead player on the 3rd book (when looking at the band set up in the standard 2-1-3-4 configuration) and also as the 4th book player where often times the line is the lead line down the octave, that if I did a good job supporting the lead, it made their job easier. It's little things too like knowing how loud to play in order to give them the support they need so they can float along on the top and not have to work so hard, or matching their pitch, even if it might not quite be in tune. Basically, giving them the foundation they need in order to effectively do their job - that has to come from within the section.

If the support players aren't making it, it's much harder for the lead player to do their job.
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LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:36 am Post subject:

Wow, tough crowd here. Let me see if I can sum up what the posts are saying based on a few sentences by the OP.

It is all about the lead player, who we know nothing about. Don’t you dare injure his feelings. You are doing a crappy job of supporting lead player. You suck as a technical player because you mentioned your range. You should always be happy playing the part you were assigned.

There is a lot of good advice posted so far, but some of it doesn’t apply to high schoolers. It would be nice if all high schoolers had the maturity of us old geezers who have had the benefit of years of learning the hard way. But it just ain’t so.

I say talk to the lead and challenge away.

Brad361 · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject:

trickg · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject:

LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:05 pm Post subject:

ZardiChar · Regular Member Joined: 30 Sep 2017 Posts: 14

Personally I don't want to seem like a Sh*thead to the rest of the band or seem full of myself but there are no "chair placement tests" in my high school. I wasn't in the area during Band Camp this summer so said person took the chair, and there wasn't much I could've done about that.

Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:12 am Post subject:

trickg · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:43 am Post subject:

dstdenis · Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:45 am Post subject:

ZardiChar · Regular Member Joined: 30 Sep 2017 Posts: 14

mentioned the challenge to the Lead player, and he said me being second makes it easier because he isn't a great soloist himself.

TKSop · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:15 am Post subject:

LittleRusty · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:45 am Post subject:

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:45 am Post subject:

Maybe talk with the lead and BD about what is best for all. It may be he (lead player) would be better for learning to improv in the 2nd spot for a while, or maybe you two could trade off tunes. Since you're in school (I assume) the focus may be more on learning.
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trickg · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:33 am Post subject:

I had a situation in my HS big band (the one I teach) last year where I felt that the kid with the strongest chops wasn't the "lead" player, but there was an age and ego dynamic that had to be accounted for. If I'd simply have pulled the one kid off of the lead book, I think it would have hurt his feelings and really bruised his ego if I put a sophomore ahead of him

So I split the book and let them distribute the parts between the two of them, with the senior getting first dibs. I actually had another kid on the 2nd book, (another senior) so it ended up being a 1/3 split rather than a 1/2 split, but the net result is that it worked out pretty well. I set it up as a teachable thing stating that with both the 1st and 2nd chair players graduating, this was a way to cultivate the sophomore so he wasn't getting thrown to the wolves this year.

We haven't started back up with the extracurricular jazz band this year yet, so I'm excited to see how things are going to shake out with this younger kid on the lead book this year.

On a side note, I'm well aware of the differences in ability between players in my jazz band and I only get these kids once a week. My thought is that your director probably knows what's going on. With that in mind, some directors play favorites, and some don't even try to mask it.

My daughter's drama troupe in HS had a teacher who was absolutely awful about playing favorites, and it was to the point that the kids in her favor were openly called "Parker's pets." It didn't matter if there were other kids more capable, if they weren't on the short list, they got snubbed and were never cast in a lead role. My daughter got snubbed the whole time. She got snubbed on a role in the last musical for a role that actually required a tap dance routine in spite of the fact that this other kid didn't dance and my daughter was a competition tap dancer. Makes sense, right?

I hope you aren't dealing with that - that's almost impossible to overcome if there is favoritism going on from the top.
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

Craig Swartz · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject:

About the best way to get where you want to be is to work hard on all of your weak areas and while you're warming up before your rehearsal, make it obvious to everyone in the room that you are better in all aspects then anyone else. These "challenging" dramas often go back and forth between players depending on the day or week unless one is obviously better. Then, there's no need for a challenge... When you get out of HS and into the real world, you probably won't have these kinds of problems. That can be good for you, or bad... Good luck.