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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:42 pm Post subject: Intonation (playing in tune) |
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It would be interesting to know how to play in tune on the trumpet. Of course course there is equal temperament which can be worked on with the use of a tuner. But the aim of this post are exploring the trumpet techniques involved in playing in an ensemble.Tuning in this context relies heavily on where we are positioned in a chord. For example if we are playing the third in a major chord we need to flatten the pitch by up to 14 cents, or a third in a minor chord the pitch needs to be raised by approximately 16 cents. If we are playing the 7th then we flatten the pitch by 31 cents. My question is, do you use slides, triggers, alternate fingering, or bend the note with the embouchure? |
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starkadder Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 542
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Intonation (playing in tune) |
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trumpet56 wrote: | My question is, do you use slides, triggers, alternate fingering, or bend the note with the embouchure? |
Yes, in that order! |
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oxleyk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Intonation (playing in tune) |
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trumpet56 wrote: | My question is, do you use slides, triggers, alternate fingering, or bend the note with the embouchure? |
Use your ears. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2330 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:43 am Post subject: Re: Intonation (playing in tune) |
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oxleyk wrote: | trumpet56 wrote: | My question is, do you use slides, triggers, alternate fingering, or bend the note with the embouchure? |
Use your ears. |
+1 Ears.. Too many variables to be that mathmatical.. fixed pitch instruments, temp changes, and other player's tuning tendancies. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Intonation (playing in tune) |
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zaferis wrote: | oxleyk wrote: | trumpet56 wrote: | My question is, do you use slides, triggers, alternate fingering, or bend the note with the embouchure? |
Use your ears. |
+1 Ears.. Too many variables to be that mathmatical.. fixed pitch instruments, temp changes, and other player's tuning tendancies. |
This (actually, these).
Brad |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:13 am Post subject: |
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And then there is more. You are playing in a section of three. Do you conform to the section leader, the other section mate or the band when they are all slightly or more than slightly different. You get to know the section leader's idiosyncrasies. Do you follow them. But wait. He's wrong. The band is right. Right?
So now you're the section leader. You think you're perfect? Should you play perfect or sync with the band. What about the section that has the lead at that point and they are a little off. Fun stuff eh.
Yup. Listen. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5680 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:32 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to jump on the bandwagon:
1.) Listen
2.) Adjust by whatever means necessary - lip it in, kick slides, etc
Most of the time intonation things can be handled by lipping it in, or with 1st and/or 3rd valve slide adjustments. If it's out further than that, then you need to adjust the tuning slide.
It's not rocket science - it just takes time and experience. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Standard practices regarding slide movement will get you close enough. The rest of the way just really depends on you making it sound good. It is more important to be in tune with the others versus trying to play in just temperament. |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5212 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Intonation (playing in tune) |
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trumpet56 wrote: | It would be interesting to know how to play in tune on the trumpet. Of course course there is equal temperament which can be worked on with the use of a tuner. But the aim of this post are exploring the trumpet techniques involved in playing in an ensemble.Tuning in this context relies heavily on where we are positioned in a chord. For example if we are playing the third in a major chord we need to flatten the pitch by up to 14 cents, or a third in a minor chord the pitch needs to be raised by approximately 16 cents. If we are playing the 7th then we flatten the pitch by 31 cents. My question is, do you use slides, triggers, alternate fingering, or bend the note with the embouchure? |
My first concern is how you're thinking about those pitch adjustments.
For starters, I don't think anybody really plays in-tune 7ths -- certainly not if the note is part of a melodic line -- the horizontal intonation would be just too weird for most ears.
More importantly, I think that thinking of the major third as 14 cents flat (etc.) is backwards. It's not flat; equal temperament is sharp. Yes, from a trumpet standpoint we may need to adjust downward, but from an aural standpoint (which far more important) we are aiming for a natural, in-tune interval. If you're in F major, it makes sense to be aware than you want to use a little more slide on E and A, but beyond that the ears need to take over.
It's fine to think about intonation in order to understand it, and to have a tool to analyze what's going on when things don't want to line up. I intellectualize it much more than most people I know -- but as soon as trumpet meets lips, that all goes out the window and I use my ears. If I focus on which notes need to be sharper or flatter, I end up just playing them all flarp. _________________ Richard Sandals
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:24 am Post subject: |
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To the extent that I play in tune, I credit to my teacher. We did a lot of playing in unison with the occasional duet. And whenever I didn't match his intonation it was really obvious. So I got really good at listening and adjusting. Occasionally that meant employing slides but way more then not it meant being really strict with the lip, tongue, and air. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Derek Reaban Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 4221 Location: Tempe, Arizona
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Like Nonsense Eliminator, I think 14 cents flat is the wrong way to think about a major third using just intonation. I think it's better to say the pitch needs to be lowered by 14 cents with respect to equal temperament. You are playing in tune! The term Flat shouldn't enter the conversation!
If you are interested this topic from a number of years ago talks about theory in a fun way. The link towards the bottom of that folder to the Savings Bond post gives another way to look at intonation.
While knowledge is important, the insight to use your ears is the best advice. _________________ Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:50 am Post subject: |
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I played a series of rehearsals with the Atlanta Symphony Community Brass ensemble a few years ago. It's directed by Michael Moore, tubist with the ASO. In the first rehearsal, he made a speech about how he considered the most important requirement for sounding good is to play in tune. And by "play in tune," he meant using "just intonation."
I remember how members of the group kinda squirmed nervously in our seats when he said this, each person wondering if s/he were good enough to do this. But Mr. Moore spent much of the first rehearsal working on intonation exercises with us. To our amazement, we found out (1) we can do this! and (2) he's right, it sounds much, much better.
I don't think any of us worried about the mechanics of making the necessary adjustments. It was all about listening super-carefully to our individual sound and the sound of the group. The distance between where we normally play a particular note and where it needed to be for just intonation was generally very small, and I don't remember thinking about how to get there--each person's subconscious mind found a way. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Derek Reaban wrote: | Like Nonsense Eliminator, I think 14 cents flat is the wrong way to think about a major third using just intonation. I think it's better to say the pitch needs to be lowered by 14 cents with respect to equal temperament. You are playing in tune! The term Flat shouldn't enter the conversation! |
You can also be "playing in tune" with a 12-tone-equal-temperament major third. There is no universal single definition of "in tune", it's heavily influenced by the musical context. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:01 am Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | I played a series of rehearsals with the Atlanta Symphony Community Brass ensemble a few years ago. It's directed by Michael Moore, tubist with the ASO. In the first rehearsal, he made a speech about how he considered the most important requirement for sounding good is to play in tune. And by "play in tune," he meant using "just intonation."
I remember how members of the group kinda squirmed nervously in our seats when he said this, each person wondering if s/he were good enough to do this. But Mr. Moore spent much of the first rehearsal working on intonation exercises with us. To our amazement, we found out (1) we can do this! and (2) he's right, it sounds much, much better.
I don't think any of us worried about the mechanics of making the necessary adjustments. It was all about listening super-carefully to our individual sound and the sound of the group. The distance between where we normally play a particular note and where it needed to be for just intonation was generally very small, and I don't remember thinking about how to get there--each person's subconscious mind found a way. |
This immediately brings to mind the number of players in the local community who seem to be slaves to the tuner. You can solve some of the worst intonation issues by using a tuner, but too much reliance on a tuner dooms a player to mediocrity. There's no replacing listening and the knowledge of what to listen for. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Last edited by cheiden on Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5212 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:06 am Post subject: |
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mm55 wrote: | You can also be "playing in tune" with a 12-tone-equal-temperament major third. There is no universal single definition of "in tune", it's heavily influenced by the musical context. |
Obviously, if you're playing with, say, a church organ, "in tune" is wherever the organ says it is.
But a just-tempered major third sounds (and feels) "right" because the laws of physics dictate that it must -- the just-tempered third is present in the overtones of the lower note, and the difference tone generated by the two pitches is exactly two octaves below the lower note. That's just not true of equal temperament, because it's a made-up compromise that has no basis in nature. Obviously, it's a made-up compromise that we've all mostly become pretty accustomed to, and some people seem to feel that it constitutes "in tune." But just like Scotty, we can't change the laws of physics. _________________ Richard Sandals
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5680 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes I wonder how these discussions get going.
Being "in tune" is relative to context. Does it really do any good to think about equal or just temperament if it continues to sound bad, or is the better answer to use your ear and adjust to make it sound right? If it doesn't ring, it's wrong.
Like NE says, if you are playing with an instrument with fixed/tempered intonation such as a piano or organ, you have to adjust to whatever that is, but in such as a wind ensemble, concert band or whatever, you listen down for general intonation, and you listen inward to your section.
Do you think singers really obsess about this kind of thing, or do you think they just use their ears and adjust?
It ain't rocket science. Use your ears. Make adjustments. The end. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: |
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"... the laws of physics dictate that it must ..."
I think that's not really true.
The "laws of physics" alone don't determine what sounds "right". If you're working in an equal-tempered environment, then equal-temperament will become your standard of what's "in tune". Forcing yourself to deviate from 12-TET in order to align harmonics can be a made-up compromise, and it can sound out of tune in 12-TET contexts. We are not limited to a simplified notion or what has a "basis in nature".
You can't change the laws of physics, but you can certainly change what sounds musically appropriate. The laws of physics don't control the art, any more than color theory can tell you what colors of paint you must use. Spectral analysis of phonetics doesn't dictate how poetry works. Transformational grammatical analysis is not the basis for literature.
Music is more art than science, usually. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Intonation (playing in tune) |
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trumpet56 wrote: | It would be interesting to know how to play in tune on the trumpet. Of course course there is equal temperament which can be worked on with the use of a tuner. But the aim of this post are exploring the trumpet... My question is, do you use slides, triggers, alternate fingering, or bend the note with the embouchure? |
My answer is "all of the above" and sometimes none. I just may let the pitch stay. At times anyway. The reasoning for the later is that when the pitch kinda gets lost it is sometimes better for a dominant instrument to set the pitch. Section leaders, esp first trumpets can more easily set the pitch and the tempo for that matter. Although when you start screwing around with the tempo you're usually gonna hear from the director sooner or later...
But when the pitch in the ensemble really goes to hell? (which happens even among professionals sometimesthough much less often than with the amateurs) you might be best to hold steady. Not adjust unless you definitively know you're significantly off pitch. That and are dead certain which direction + or - to go. And the reason you might be advised to hold steady is because other wind players and vocalists might just be keying off of your pitch.
By our nature trumpets are leaders. Not followers. If you develop a reasonably good sense of pitch and create a dominant presence in the band? I can guarantee that the reeds and other brass are already tuning to you. Even the vocalists.
So practice being dominant.
But also practice correcting your known deficiencies. The O/P has gone farther thsn I generally do by actually measuring the specific adjustment dictated by scientific observation of equal temperment. I dont go that far. Close perhaps but not down to such specific measurements.
Instead I just regularly search for my C scale notes which run funky. We all know about the low C# and D. But then there are most E and A naturals. Usually run sharp. So we hit them 3rd valve. If that isnt enough? Pull out the 3rd valve. Worse still however?
Sometimes I dont like the way the 3rd valve feels. My right hand doesnt feel as solidly connected to the instrument. So I may just g ahead and blow the A 1/2 valves. Even the first ledger line A which is notoriously sharp. A good first valve slide trigger helps but there again?
Such hand maneuverings fool with my very important hand/horn feeling connection. Acoustics are important to me. And I dont like to switch hand motions at times. Same is true for upper register alternate fingerings. Like the high D. Granted it plays better in tune open. But Im used to the FEEL of blowing it first valve. Thus my security is not as enhanced when I blow it open.
When I watch Maynard blow Macarthur Patk I notice that he does not use alternate fingerings. Like he plays the first ledger line A 1/2 valves. Ditto the C# instead of 2nd valve only which usually blows a hair less flat. And if I listen very carefully I can detect a tad bit of sharpness on his first ledger line A and a tad bit more flatness on his second ledger line C#.
But his tone was so good that no one is bothered by these minor variances. And herein lies a secret:
An instrumentalist with superior tone quality usually sounds better in tune than his mediocre tonal quality peers. So if our "ringer" in the trumpet section tends to dominate? He will make the others of mediocre sound quality tend to sound out of tune. Which they probably are anyway. But much of the ringer's superior intonation and tone is created by his history of consistency and leadership. With his leadership the other cats in the band have become trained to follow his lead. And woe to his peers who dont follow the section leafer's example. As those who "fight" him will usually stick out. Appearing off pitch.
If you're still having trouble staying on pitch? Even after practicing with a tuner at home and every month for a year? You might consider buying an old sntique Al Cass mouthpiece. Although those trumpets desiring large cups on their mouthpieces will usually find Al's collection lacking. His largest trumpet piece was the 4 and it is only about as big as the Bach 3C. But maybe a haur shallower and with well rounded rim. The thing with the Al Cass collection is that you will always sound more professional playing them. These pieces breed confidence. The reasoning being that they are more comfortable and are far easier to support. They were the "great equalizer" for averafe trumpet players.
Conversely strong natural trumpet players may not like Cass pieces. They may find the rim too round and lacking in definition. That samenasty inner rim "bite" found on Vincent Bach pieces is something the more natural players prefer. I think it helps their accuracy and articulation. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:44 am Post subject: |
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I struggled with tuning for decades. I was constantly listening to my pitch and asking myself if I was sharp, flat, or in tune. I drove myself crazy. (yes, Tom Tapscott, crazy for me is really a short putt) Then one day in the 1990's I was playing in a brass quintet performance and we were locked dead in tune. I thought about what I was doing and I came to this conclusion which has helped me out since then.
Blowing the center of the horn (that would be done by keeping the embouchure and oral cavity in the correct position) and then audiating my part. (singing it in my brain while I play) When I do that successfully, I play in tune with the group. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:49 am Post subject: |
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mike ansberry wrote: | I struggled with tuning for decades. I was constantly listening to my pitch and asking myself if I was sharp, flat, or in tune. I drove myself crazy. (yes, Tom Tapscott, crazy for me is really a short putt) Then one day in the 1990's I was playing in a brass quintet performance and we were locked dead in tune. I thought about what I was doing and I came to this conclusion which has helped me out since then.
Blowing the center of the horn (that would be done by keeping the embouchure and oral cavity in the correct position) and then audiating my part. (singing it in my brain while I play) When I do that successfully, I play in tune with the group. |
I concur that blowing the center of the hornshould be the starting point for all players. That's the foundation. Even though I am always adjusting, I think nominally blowing to the center of the slot makes it much easier to do so. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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