Fixing incorrect embouchure/air usage in mis-trained players

[VintageFTW]

Just to clear any preconceptions before I continue, when I say "fix" I should really say completely reteach how to play. Also, that what I'm trying to do is partly a labor of love for my school band as well as the future of my section.

The story here is as such:
All of the underclassmen trumpet players in my school band, except for one, quite frankly don't know anything about how to play other than jamming the horn into their face and blowing (this is a slight exaggeration, but for some it is literal). This though, is not their fault. The exception of the one, a freshman (I'm a junior), is due to the fact that he started out being taught to play in Texas (we are in Georgia), and as such he was started off by a different teacher.

To cut to the chase, the teacher who teaches all the brass how to play his/her respective instrument in 6th grade doesn't actually know how to teach people the fundamentals of playing a brass instrument. More specifically he only teaches students how to make a sound, any sound. He then goes straight into counted breathing exercises exclusively for about 2-3 weeks, not allowing students to attempt playing, and doesn't even instruct on how to hold the instrument properly. To add to this catastrophe of an instruction, if one could even call it that, he doesn't teach air support, embouchure formation, embouchure development, correct posture, ect... If I do remember correctly I think the only scales he teaches are Bb, Eb, and Ab. Anyways, all of this information can be condensed down to the man can't teach.

What I and the two (maybe three) other trumpet players who have taught ourselves how to play to some level of proficiency want to put together is some sort of workshop that teaches A: the most basic concepts and fundamentals, and B: proper air support and posture, as the current air support situation is near nonexistent and posture for most is slouching into the chair as if it were a recliner.

To give one an idea of how much of an issue this is the band director was forced to split the class into intermediate band and advanced band... something that hadn't been for 15 years. Intermediate band consists of woodwinds who aren't quite skilled enough to be in advanced band and brass players who either can't play, can play but need/want further teaching, the few who should be in advanced band but either didn't try out or don't have room in their schedule, and finally some very few people who have room in said schedule and are in both classes. Advanced band is mostly proficient players, though a few can't/don't/won't play who did not try out for the class and are only there because of some scheduling mishaps. In advanced band there are only 8 trumpet players (out of 19), 6 of which who actually auditioned (including myself, and all of which are self-taught), and two who are in the class due to said scheduling issues. One wants to get better and wants me to teach him, while the other is in both classes and plays in neither of them.

After all this rambling on, what I wish is for some general advice on teaching the fundamentals to what is essentially a group of beginners who have been playing with minimal progress for at least the past 4 years. I do realize that I sound rather harsh, but I'm simply being blunt. Any help is better than no help, so I thank you for any advice you have to give.
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[EBjazz]

Tough job you've got there man. I think it's an issue of gaining their trust. You can do this by playing well and actually wanting to help the person as well as help the band.
As you describe it, it seems there is some controversy. Sorry to hear that. Understand each player's frustrations and come up with a plan to help them.
Gaining the individual trust is the most essential thing. Play well. Lead by example. Then you will get the chance to help them.
Teachers are not just dispensers of information.
Here's some stuff I have for free to get you started.
https://bolvinmusic.com/product/i-play-trumpet-and-the-really-big-student-songbook/

https://bolvinmusic.com/free-stuff/

Good luck

Eb
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[TKSop]

From one blunt (ostensibly harsh) poster to another.... Tread carefully.

The desire to want to help is unquestionably a good one, but there are two aspects to this that make your situation a delicate one:
1) Pragmatically speaking, this teacher (regardless of ability) almost certainly has far more clout with the band director than you do - if they were your teacher to (as I'm reading it, they're not?) then they could make your lessons difficult, etc... In short, be careful not to tread on toes in a way that could result in your enjoyment and progress being affected.
2) Your own experience as a player and student (or rather, your lack thereof) - from an ethical standpoint, you want to be careful not to pass on advice that's going to cause problems in the long term, and you ideally need the experience of the journey and the confirmation that you're doing it right yourself before you can have too much confidence in that (it's possible to get decent results with bad mechanics up to a certain point).

I appreciate that your coming here shows an awareness of point 2 to begin with, which is a great start - there are some experienced teachers here who can give you great advice... And there are also questionable characters who seem to be wrong about far more than they're right.

[AJCarter]

To play devil's advocate a little bit here, you have to know that trying to teach anywhere from 12- 20 to how many ever there are, beginner trumpets at once is not an easy task. They are always making noise, and that is all they want. Even when they ask me how to fix something they start talking or playing before i can even finish my answer. Also in a class like that you have to teach to the bottom rung of players so they dont quit right away out of frustration.

As far as your band goes, if you have s private teacher, THAT would be the person to run a clinic on how to fix issues. You can offer to run sectionals or even offer to practice with some of these kids, but as a high school(?) Junior, you will be assumed as having only slightly more knowledge and experience than those who you wish to help. Trust me, im sure lots of us have been there .

Good luck!
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[Bflatman]

I am not happy with some of the things you say.

You may very well be right with everything you say but you are heading for a confrontation and this is how what you have said reads.

I am unhappy with how my fellow band members are taught by the teacher. I am completely self taught and know much more than the teacher does. I have several pals who also are completely self taught and they too know much more than the teacher.

However you slice it, this reads like a knowitall who doesnt like a teacher and his methods.

I am being harsh here and I do trust what you say despite my comments. But this will be a battle for hearts and minds and you will have to establish your own credibility as a player and also as teacher if you are to fight and win this battle.

So you had better make sure you not only do know more than this teacher but are prepared to prove it when challenged to do so or nobody will believe you.

Battles are won, and I have won many battles, by being better than the opposition and having evidence to prove you are better.

Get a lot of proof that you do know more than him and can teach better or you are wasting your time.

The teacher will have credibility and teaching credentials, where are your teaching credentials, where is your credibility.

[Robert P]

You're in high school? The way you write and the collection of horns you list don't say "high school kid" to me.

What's the background of the brass teacher who doesn't know how to teach brass? What do they play? If you're a student yourself (?) when did you envision doing these workshops with the players in the various bands? I assume your day is filled with other classes.

Why is there a kid in two band classes who doesn't play in either? I.e. he just sits there with a horn through two band classes a day and doesn't actually blow into it? Why did he sign up for band at all? I would think he'd have been booted out.
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[Trumpetingbynurture]

While I understand your frustration, I have to caution that you may not be accurate in your understanding of the situation. There are several things you have failed to address which may well explain why you and a few others have successfully worked out how to play reasonably well, and many others haven't.

For example, those students who aren't doing well might:

a) Not have a natural proclivity for the instrument. The trumpet doesn't come naturally for a great many people, and if you are one of the few for whom it does, then it might seem like there must be something fundamentally wrong with the teacher. But it's not necessarily true. For some people, it can take a good few thousand hours of practice before their embouchure really starts to solidify into something that a gifted student might have very early on. This is generally to do with the structure of the teeth and a few other things. Some people's faces have bone structures that work with minimal development. Others have to spend time developing musculature so that they can hold the embouchure in the correct posture.

b) Not all students probably practice or are that interested in practice, or that interested in the trumpet. This is very frequently the reason there are significant differences between school students IMO. Some go home and for whatever reason, chose to practice their instrument on a regular basis and with some desire to ultimately be good. Others go home, play video games or whatever and are just happy to play in band and make music in that limited capacity. Some students aren't encouraged to practice at home. This could explain a large amount of the variation.

c) etc.

This is not to say that you are wrong about the teacher's inadequacy, but before you proceed you should also confront the fact that you yourself are an even less experienced teacher. If you are naturally talented at playing, that does not make you a good teacher, nor knowledgeable about teaching. Many of the people on this forum teach, and have been teaching for years or decades, and are still learning about trumpet teaching. It's not so simple as to say here is the three secrets to success.
While there are certainly many pedagogues that outline the fundamentals of playing the instrument, they do so in broad terms, knowing that each student will ultimately need to work out how to play the instrument through a process involving a LOT of practice.

For example, I've personally read thousands of pages on trumpet playing pedagogy (Maybe even tens of thousands) and watched hundreds of hours of videos on the topic, and I still feel far from having the keys to trumpet playing excellence, neither for myself or anyone I teach.

So what I'm saying is to be mindful that you are an inexperienced teacher and that you probably don't really know enough to be making a truly fair judgement call about the situation. There's nothing wrong with wanting to help those players out, that's great. But I would definitely not approach it in the form of "I know more about this, I should be teaching them" or whatever.

I would suggest a better approach might be to offer to run sectionals for the band director, and tell them you're interested in learning more about teaching trumpet. And from there, run the sectionals, and then work out ways to run those that helps address some of those issues. For example, you might spend a few minutes of those mouthpiece buzzing sections of the music and stuff like that.
Be creative, but be humble and helpful, and don't force the issue. Be a role model, not a dictator.

Good luck!

[trumpet_bob_silver]

Just glancing at the post....

And considering reality.... (ie They won't all practice.)

I'd do things as a group (trumpet section, brass section, whole band). You never know who missed things also or what/who you'll reinforce.

Do quick, little 'how to form an embouchure,' 'how to breathe,' 'how to practice' sessions. Emphasize practicing to everyone.

It's not like everyone in high school mastered all the basics, remembers all the basics, and is actively/intelligently practicing. Covering all that again doesn't hurt at all.

And then add in focus on the section or individuals who need it. Maybe not say it bluntly, but keep harping on things so much, that eventually it will click that something about their playing could really be improved. It could be the trumpets are the section you really focus on for a while. Do some quick, short session practicing "for them" "with them" during a rehearsal so they know what to do at home.

[dstdenis]

When someone in a peer group stands up and offers to teach the others, they won't take up the offer unless they:

1. Agree there's a problem
2. Care about fixing it
3. Believe that the person making the offer could fix it
4. Are willing to change roles from peers to teacher/students, and
5. Are willing to do the work required.

You've identified a trumpet-playing problem, which is great, but there's a potential group-dynamics problem that might be more difficult. You don't have the authority to force your way, so you'll have to persuade them if you can.

Do what a start-up business entrepreneur would (should) do: a little market research. Ask around to test the level of agreement with these points. If you get an enthusiastic positive response, full speed ahead. If not, you should slow down and try to understand how they see it.
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[Richard III]

We'd love to hear you play. How about a sample?
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[Brad361]

I just deleted a lengthy response I made to this thread.

I don’t necessarily buy that the teacher the OP thinks is incompetent actually is, but even if that’s true, I have my doubts that a “self taught” guy with maybe five-six years playing experience is in a position to fix the rest of the entire section. My suggestion to the OP would be to take lessons and become the best player he can be, leave “fixing” the rest of the section to people who are responsible for that.

Brad

[TKSop]

[AJCarter]

[cheiden]

I tend to favor the lead-by-example suggestions too. If you can then get even a few players willing to do something of a study group and show each other what works for each of you, you could see a lot of progress without all the conflict.
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[Steve A]

Another vote for just doing your job as well as you can, and otherwise keeping your opinions to yourself. If people ask you for advice, sure, cautiously offer some reasonable thoughts (probably leave the "the teacher is wrong" part out), but don't go out of your way to broadcast your feelings on anything negative about the school/band/teacher/program. Even if you're right, they're not going to put you in charge, and you'll come off looking like a jerk. Focus on doing a great job, and leave the rest to the people who are supposed to do it.

[pepperdean]

When I was junior in high school, I knew almost everything. It wasn't until later, as a Conservatory student, I really knew everything and used that knowledge to "fix" some things in my embouchure. It took Carmine Caruso a year to get me back to my fully working chops. It took less time for me to learn how little I really knew.

This is not to say that there may not be deficiencies with the teacher but there are probably a bunch of other factors you're not considering. Kudos to you for wanting to help the group get better but there's likely no 'one size fits all' fix that can be taught for that outcome.

It might be best to share some practice ideas that help you get better with others who seem like they'll listen and gradually be a positive influence. In addition, share the link to the Trumpet Herald and inspire others to open their minds to new ideas.

Alan

[Bflatman]

There is something else you need to understand.

When you see a teacher in a school you see a musician educating but that is not his job. You dont see the many things he has to do to keep his job. Teaching is only a tiny part of it. You see the top of the iceberg and you dont see the crap he has to do and doesnt want and comes with the job.

He has to make his schedules for teaching he has to assess his students he has to stream them correctly he has to work out his teaching plans and obey the principles of teaching dictated to him.

He has to create tests that show development in key area for students he has to show he is developing his students correctly and bringing them all to the expected level of learning as dictated to him by faceless beurocrats.

He has to be tested regularly on his teaching methods and he must make the school look good to the independent testers who visit.

He must also obey the needs and requirements of the Principal and school governors, he must demonstrate to parents that he is teaching their princes and princesses correctly and make them all stars of the school concerts despite their being talentless no hopers who dont deserve the teachers time and wont practice.

He must also prepare for school events and make the school look good with wonderful concerts and give useless students personal time and tuition in a pointless attempt to make them improve.

You dont like the way the teacher teaches, that is all you are interested in the teacher has to fit that bit in amongst all the other things he has to do.

A teacher today is lucky if one tenth of his time can be spent on teaching students.

The only thing that teacher wants to do is to teach but schools take that away and make teachers do crappy admin and pointless work, and you want to take the only thing that gives that teacher happiness away from him and just leave him with the rubbish admin work.

And think on this, the teacher does not want those students that turn up and dont play, they are there because of scheduling issues and the teacher is required to accept them, but once they are in his class he is forced to educate them so students like that take his time and effort. He will be tested and must show they are learning skills. How about taking those students on, the real problems and drains on that teacher so he can get on with real teaching to students who want to learn and show what he can do.

Either you are part of the problem or you are part of the solution. How about trying to make that teachers life better instead of taking away the only thing that makes him happy.

Become part of the solution.

[John Mohan]

To the OP:

Sounds like you have a bit of a dilemma, but I think I can be of help.

Your profile says you live "somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia". Though I live in Chicago, my Mother and one of my Sisters and her family live in Blairsville, Georgia and my other Sister is a Professor at UGA in Athens. So it is conceivable that I could arrange to come down and do a Master Class at your school and combine it with a little family vacation. I normally charge $500 plus travel and lodging expenses when I do Clinics, but in your case (or rather, your school's case) I'd be willing to do a daylong Master Class for just the cost of the gasoline to make the trip, since I would be able to combine it with a visit to my family. That would be about $180.

Run this by your band director and see if he'd like to take me up on this. With an afternoon (or morning) Clinic Master Class I could provide you and your colleagues with the knowledge of what to practice, how to practice and when to practice which would be of tremendous help to you and your other brass playing colleagues. Basically I'd teach you all about the mechanics involved in brass playing - the role of air power, correct breathing, correct tongue arch for higher notes, and the proper way to finger notes (Lift fingers high and strike down the valves hard). Most importantly, I'd teach all of you the correct way to practice and the correct material to practice to develop great levels of ability as trumpet (and other brass) players.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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[ltkije1966]

[Andy Del]

I don't want to rain on John's parade, but I would counsel caution. Consider the response this kid is going to get fronting up to the staff member and announcing he has organised for someone to blow in, run a cut price masterclass or lecture to show the kids how to play. (The inference that the staff member can't do it properly won't be missed.)

I reckon you'd get a pretty cool response, if not an outright invitation to go and...

It also does the kid a grave disservice, as he is going to head off into a conflict he might have zero chance of winning. Pluis, we also have no idea of how accurate his allegations are, if there is any history of conflict, etc. etc.

I'm quite sure the kid I just ran through the Goedicke for the past hour could come up with all sorts garbage against me if he wanted to, despite the fact we just had a fantastically positive hour and he is showing a lot of growth both musically and personally - this is from his parents who are 'blaming' all this on the work we are going together.

Something to think about...

cheers

Andy
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