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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: Question about terminology on hi notes |
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I sometimes see people posting about hitting double a's in a music setting. As someone who struggles to use a hi f in music this confuses me. Are people saying they use a double a - to me a above dbl. c - or is this a reality. And to use it musically. ??? I know there are some monsters who can use a dbl in music but dbl. a is damn near triples. Are these people really having this type of range? If I could play a hi as just another note on the page I would die fulfilled. I haven't been around the new kids much in a long time but in my day these things were a figment of imagination. If Neone can point me to music played in this range musically I would love to hear it.
Rod |
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ghelbig Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 May 2011 Posts: 908 Location: Reno, NV
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Question about terminology on hi notes |
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Rod Haney wrote: | Are people saying they use a double a - to me a above dbl. c - or is this a reality. |
AFAIK, doubles start on F#, so double-A is the A below double-C.
I prefer "american notation" above "trumpet notation":
http://www.allaboutmusictheory.com/piano-keyboard/octave-registers/
Using consistent terminology allows knowledge to be communicated.
Gary.
Last edited by ghelbig on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:39 am Post subject: |
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When talking about like instruments:
Low X, lowest on the instrument.
Middle X, one octave higher.
High X, two octaves above low X.
Double high X, three octaves below.
Higher, if you can play it, you can name it. .
p.s. "Doubles" don't start on a given pitch, they are related to other tones' placement in relation to that tone. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Jon Ruff has a YouTube video on this (can't find it right now). I seem to recall him preferring to avoid the common confusion of nomenclature in the trumpet world by referring to notes as they relate to high C and double high C. I had always "heard" junior high and high school band directors and even college trumpet instructors refer to the G that sits on top of the staff as "High G" (and it may be high to a kid starting out in junior high!). (The F on the fifth line I had heard as top-line F.) That G to me would then be the starting point for the "high" register, and the G above high C would be the first "double high" note ("double high G" or "double G"). The triple register would then officially begin at the G above double high C. There appears to be a big disagreement on all of this, but I think most of us can agree on the nomenclature for two notes:
High C - pretty obvious to all of us, this is the C just above the staff.
-Notes immediately below or above this note can merely be referred to as: the D above high C, the E above high C, the F above high C, the G above high C; the B below high C, the A below high C (or the latter two as the B above the staff and A above the staff).
Double High C - the octave above high C. Again, pretty much accepted in "Trumpet-dom."
-Notes immediately below or above this note can merely be referred to as: the D above double high C, the E above double high C, the F above double high C, the G above double high C (or for some, "Triple G"); the B below double high C, the A below double high C.
I think this is the terminology Jon used, so Jon...calling out to Jon...please post that link to your video...please. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: |
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There has been a lot of discussion on this topic here on TH. In my experience, whether this interpretation is technically "music theory" accurate or not, when trumpet players speak of "double G" they are typically referring to the 4th ledger line above the staff. By that interpretation "double A" is the 5th space above the staff and "double C" is the 6th space above the staff.
This interpretation follows the format that the lowest pitch of any particular note on the trumpet is the "low" version of that note, one octave above the "low" version is the "middle" version, one octave above the "middle" version is the "high" version and one octave above the "high" version is the "double high" version. By that system the shift to each next higher version begins at F#.
It's my understanding that this interpretation does not match the technical "music theory" interpretation which is based on the piano. Nonetheless, in my experience the above interpretation is the interpretation most commonly used by trumpet players. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Last edited by HERMOKIWI on Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | When talking about like instruments:
Low X, lowest on the instrument.
Middle X, one octave higher.
High X, two octaves above low X.
Double high X, three octaves below.
Higher, if you can play it, you can name it. .
p.s. "Doubles" don't start on a given pitch, they are related to other tones' placement in relation to that tone. |
Wow my musical education is sorely lacking. I had always thought (since 1964 believe it or not) that “hi” anything started at hi c above the staff and started there with hi a being above hi c. I thought double c was like 6 lines above the staff (not something I ever had need to read); then the double a a few above that.
Well my range just picked up an octave by asking a question (as a talking point anyway): this certainly answers my doubts when I hear people talk about hitting triples ( which I know can be played but I’m not sure articulated as a real musical note). I take lessons with Manley and have heard him play what I thought were doubles that I guess now must have been triples. Thanks to a well connected band director who played with WH I got to see (and TRY to play) actual lead charts from Herman and Kenton and had to have the director what the notes were so I could make some attempt to play them. Only saw 1 tune out of 30 that had more than 5 lines above the staff and it was marked optional. I can play a low f# quite well and can on a really good day use f# above hi c and use it as part of a 1/16 note run, and I certainly never thought that meant I had command of 3 octaves. Well ain’t i the s***.
Rod |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: |
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This has been discussed a lot and there are different interpretations, natch.
For me, the way I was originally taught (ca. 1970) was that the lowest (non-pedal) note is F# below the staff, so doubles start indexed from there. The second G over the staff is thus a double G (low G -> G -> high G -> double G). However, I have played plenty of gigs where the ask was for "high G" and that meant the second G over the staff.
It's usually obvious in context... _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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VintageFTW Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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From my experience the way notes are named are as such:
Double Pedal Notes,
Pedal Notes,
Low F# - Low C,
Db - Middle G,
Middle G - G on top of the staff,
G on top of the staff - "X" above the staff,
"X" above the staff - High C,
High C - High F#,
Double G - Double C,
Double C - Triple/Super G,
Triple/Super G - Triple/Super C
Triple/Super C - "X" above Triple/Super C
While some of the intervals are redundant and uneven, most likely nobody will be confused if one refers to notes this way, given that he/she is a trumpet player.
Of course, the unarguable way to name notes are things such as Low F#, Low C, Middle G, Middle C, High C, Double C, Triple/Super C, ect... referring to everything else as "X" above/below "X" because everybody understands (or at least should) those terms as reference. _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I can't find the Jon Ruff video either. Hopefully, he'll post it here. It's the most sensible and unambiguous way of naming things. It avoids the entire debate about where doubles and triples start and focuses on communication.
Essentially, it's the following:
-Notes below the staff are called "X below the staff."
-Notes in the staff are called by their place in the staff or just "in the staff." So second line G is "second line G" or "G in the staff."
-The notes just above the staff can be called "above the staff."
- Everything else can be described by their relationship to the different Cs. Whatever is easiest.
- The 1st C above the staff can be called high C as a way-point. So the B just below high C can be called "B below high C." The E above high C would be called "E above high C."
-The 2nd C above the staff can be called double C as a way-point.
The college music theory systems of C1, C2, etc. or C', C'', etc. work fine in academic contexts, but using simple and clear language works best for clear communication. Debates about double G vs. high G is a good waste of time on the internet, but not very useful otherwise. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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VintageFTW wrote: | From my experience the way notes are named are as such:
Double Pedal Notes,
Pedal Notes,
Low F# - Low C,
Db - Middle G,
Middle G - G on top of the staff,
G on top of the staff - "X" above the staff,
"X" above the staff - High C,
High C - High F#,
Double G - Double C,
Double C - Triple/Super G,
Triple/Super G - Triple/Super C
Triple/Super C - "X" above Triple/Super C
While some of the intervals are redundant and uneven, most likely nobody will be confused if one refers to notes this way, given that he/she is a trumpet player.
Of course, the unarguable way to name notes are things such as Low F#, Low C, Middle G, Middle C, High C, Double C, Triple/Super C, ect... referring to everything else as "X" above/below "X" because everybody understands (or at least should) those terms as reference. |
If I'm understanding this correctly, you refer to the D below staff and 1st line E merely as "D" and "E," respectively. Some call that low D (or "D below the staff"), followed by low E (or "1st line E"), and then the notes in the staff as "X in the staff"...or they say, "4th line D, "4th space E," etc.
Ah, nomenclature...can't live with it, can't shoot it.... |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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At least now I wont Gnash my teeth when I hear a 16 year old talk about having trouble with his double A. The best I ever saw in HS or college had a usable 6 ledger line C and he played lead for Kenton later. No one else even came close, some could hit and sustain the note but he was the only one I ever met who could use it in a musical passage. But then I dont know a lot of great players. There is a huge difference in using A above hi c and using A above 6th ledger c which is what I thought people were saying. So I had a double G in hi school (hmmmmm) if I’d known that I could have been a legend in my own mind.
Rod |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Low and middle are the ones you can play, high are ones perhaps you can play some of, and double-high are the ones you can't... |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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IMO: “double” starts at double C. I would refer to the A just below double C as “A just below double C”😎, or “A two octaves above second space A.”
Just my opinion, but to me using the term “double” for anything below double C is sort of “high school.”
Brad |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think a good assumption is that most/all references to "doubles" and "highs" are all below double C. So if someone says "double A" I assume they're talking about the A above high C. If they say "high A" I assume the same. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:16 am Post subject: |
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JoseLindE4 wrote: | I think a good assumption is that most/all references to "doubles" and "highs" are all below double C. So if someone says "double A" I assume they're talking about the A above high C. If they say "high A" I assume the same. |
In general your term "High A" is correct and is what I would infer from your statement. Yet for most people besides you and me I would tend to use different and more specific terminology.
For starters I've never liked the term "double" for use on any note besides "double C".
The words I use to define high notes will express their relationship to either high C, double C, or God willing Triple C. So anything above high C up to the G is an,
E above high C
F above high C
G above high C. Followed by,
A below double C
B flat below double C etc.
The same for notes between double and triple C. Although I've never used any of these in concert and can just barely blow a few of them in the practice room. Anyway those are,
"D above double C,
"F above double C,
"G above double C,
"A BELOW triple C etc.
Although I didnt always do it above, when writing I tend to capitalize the letter of the note and the first letter of "Double", "Triple" etc. So "A below Double C" is helpful. Also abbreviations while writing are useful and save time. Also requiring full capital letters.
DHC "Double High C"
THC "Cannabis product"
That and curiously my father's initials. He even got his bags examined! More than once! Just due to the personalized initials engraved on the brass plate of his luggage. Its a crazy world. As my Dad never smoked in his life.
To complicate things further all the Vegas pros Ive spoken with tend to call the double C just "C". I guess because they all have one. They either have a bandstand usable double C or they don't get the best gigs. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:44 am Post subject: |
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JoseLindE4 wrote: | The college music theory systems of C1, C2, etc. or C', C'', etc. work fine in academic contexts, but using simple and clear language works best for clear communication. Debates about double G vs. high G is a good waste of time on the internet, but not very useful otherwise. |
Scientific Pitch Notation solved this problem a long time ago, but few want to use it, I guess because we can't remember the octave numbers, and maybe also because SPN is supposed to be in concert pitch, not transposed pitch.
I think if people memorized one note, they could work it out from there. For example, high C is Bb5. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Last edited by dstdenis on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Like I said earlier, there are two systems, one which involves instruments of varying transpositions simultaneously and two, one within like-instruments. I don't see what's so complicated about this or why it has to be micro-analyzed.
If something doesn't work there's no reason to perpetuate it just because that's what's always been done. But "If it ain't broken, don't fix it". _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Logic should prevail.
Lowest note = low F#
The next higher F# = middle F#
Next higher = high F#
Next higher (F# above high C) should be called double F#
F# above double C should be triple F#
All other notes follow accordingly.
This is the most reasonable and intuitive naming system.
A case has been made for low F to be below low F# by depressing 123 + 3rd valve tuning slide all the way out. Maybe, but it's not as intuitive. |
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spyke Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 177
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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I've only ever been taught that octaves simply begin with C.
(Double Pedal C = an octave below pedal C)
(Pedal C = an octave below low C)
Low C = Below the staff...
High C = ...Above the staff
Double C = an octave above high C.
("Double" C#/Db thru B definitely live here)
Triple C = an octave above double C. |
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greg warthan Regular Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 56 Location: des moines, ia
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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I believe the term "double" is slang. Don't recall a theory text that referred to any note as double, triple, etc. The c to c thing is based on the piano, not trumpet range. A double in baseball is two bases. Double cheeseburger has two patties. Second g would be the double. Had to throw that in. I do like Swartz' reply, though! |
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