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Johnathan Barnett Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 169 Location: Morgantown, WV
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:43 pm Post subject: Horn safari.... |
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I hope this doesn't sound too ignorant but here it goes.....
I play trumpet, guitar, and keys. Obviously keyboard's have so many different sounds it's crazy. If I want piano or organ or synth or Rhodes or Yamaha CP-80 I can push a button and get it. If I want to mimic a certain guitar player, in theory I tried to match or get close to their equipment. If I choose an acoustic I look at the wood: rosewood, mahogany, etc and body size: jumbo dreadnought, concert, etc. If I play electric I choose solid or hollow body, single coils or hummbuckers, pedal effects etc. I do all of this to achieve a certain sound.
I grew up listening to and wanting to sound like Doc. Whether it was Doc and the Tonight Show Band or Doc and The Cincinnati Pops Orchestra. The sound I have in my mind that I want to achieve is Doc's sound. I know there are other mechanical and anatomical factors in production of sound on a brass instrument: teeth, lips, tongue, etc but if I want to sound like Doc should I be on a horn safari for a horn/mouthpiece combo like Doc? Should I look for a NY Bach style horn with a #6 leadpipe and a lightweight 37 bell? Should I look at the Getzen Severinsen? Should I try and find a Bel Canto (which I think is what he used on those Tonight Show recordings)? Maybe a Scodwell? Should I check out Bob Reeves mouthpieces with similar specs in cup depth and backbore but more adaptable to my rim size?
Let me know your thoughts and thanks in advance for your input. _________________ Johnathan Barnett
Yamaha YTR-736
Yamaha Japan 12, 13A4a
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"Don't look down on anyone unless you are helping them up." --- Jesse Owens |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t have the answer, but you left Doc’s latest foray into designing his own horn, the Destino. |
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Heck, as Doc can't decide on what gear works, how can anyone else?
The key lies in the woodshed, take whatever gear you have and just work it out in practice.
If you want to sound like Doc, listen to a lot of his recordings, and internalize that sound. And listen some more, and play along, and pay particular attention to his articulation, what I have found is the key to the Doc sound. His attacks are so forceful, not blatty or necessarily loud, but make a statement, that tells everyone sit up and pay attention, some good stuff is forthcoming.
Then he delivers, one of the best examples that come to mind is his flugel solo on 'Spanish Dreams', actually comes in very quietly, then builds throughout until he is just wailing over the span of 3 octaves. _________________ Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2175 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:47 am Post subject: |
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plp wrote: | ....If you want to sound like Doc, listen to a lot of his recordings, and internalize that sound. And listen some more, .... |
This! |
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pinstriper Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2013 Posts: 340 Location: Portlandia, OR
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:03 am Post subject: |
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I rather suspect that the equipment that allowed Doc to sound like Doc will not necessarily be the same as what you would need to sound like Doc. If that were even within your ability at some point. _________________ ~'77 DEG Dynasty II Soprano Bugle in G
'13 Chinese POS "Hawk" branded Flugel
'59 Olds Ambassador Cornet
'51 Olds Super
'69 Olds Studio
'40 Olds Special Cornet, Military Issued |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9831 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Doc has a big, bright, commercial sound. To achieve a similar sound, you would be best off with a horn that tends to create a big, bright, commercial sound.
Getzen Eterna (obviously)
Shewhorn
Benge CG
Selmer CG
Yamaha Bergeron model
Benge 3X MLP
etc.
Then of course, you need to study with a great teacher and practice about 6 to 8 hours a day for ten years or so. Then, presto!
Cheers,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Don’t mean to be a smarta## but I think to sound like Doc you gotta play like Doc. Ive been around pro players who could make almost any instrument sound like they wanted it to within reason. I would define what it is about his playing in particular you want and decide if it was due to the type of horn he played or the way he plays. Or pick up any of the horns he has played and compare your sound to his. Anything lacking is you or just a bad horn try a few. Bet you find that most of what you want isn’t in the brass. Guitars and keyboards are not nearly as dependent on the meat playing the tone as the trumpet. I recently bought what I think is the best trumpet ever made and I’m thrilled with it. But it’s also a bit sobering to know that anything I dont like coming out the end from now on can only be me. My horn safari ended, and now I have to concentrate on the real problem, my play issues. But if you do go after horns, remember ‘buy cheap, sell dear’ haha if you can.
If you dont have my issues and want a horn similar to Docs I would look for the sound he gets Vs. the brand. To me his sound is clear and brilliant and plays very slightly on top of pitch. There are many horns that have this character and you should try to match your blow with the horn to get the sound you want. Ive seen in my own experience how often the horn sounds different for you than others. I had a lot of good experience at ITG and other local trumpet fests and that was my experience. I played a HJ King silver bell and I can tell you that in no way did I get a Harry James sound, look around at all equipment including Docs and Ill bet you get as close as possible to his sound.
Rod |
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Johnathan Barnett Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 169 Location: Morgantown, WV
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Great thoughts from everyone....thanks for the responses! _________________ Johnathan Barnett
Yamaha YTR-736
Yamaha Japan 12, 13A4a
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"Don't look down on anyone unless you are helping them up." --- Jesse Owens |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry wrote: | plp wrote: | ....If you want to sound like Doc, listen to a lot of his recordings, and internalize that sound. And listen some more, .... |
This! |
From Arnold Jacobs mouth to my ears. "Imagine the greatest sound and hear it in your mind's ear. For example Adolph Herseth or doc Severinson."
Get it in your head and it will come out of your horn. |
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roynj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Horn safari.... |
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Johnathan Barnett wrote: |
Should I check out Bob Reeves mouthpieces with similar specs in cup depth and backbore but more adaptable to my rim size?
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Doc played almost exclusively on Bach 5C or equivalent mouthpieces for most of his career. (From sources such as Tony Scodwell and others.)
But that isn't gonna make you sound like Doc. His sound is that of a player with decades of practicing and playing 6 to 8 hours per day. The advice is to listen a lot to his playing and sound. Get that sound concept inside your head would be the first thing. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2619
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I think Doc's unique sound comes from a combination of the physical tools he was born with, his neuromuscular feedback loop and his personality and musical sensibilities.
I've long surmised that Doc is working with different tools than everyone else. Something about the way his chops respond, the resonance within his body, his digital dexterity in his younger days. Listening to "Chimes Festival" - I don't think there's anyone else who's ever picked up the instrument who could duplicate that performance. I believe that's true with a lot of things he's done.
To a large extent Doc has a very strident approach to playing. Yet even when he's playing in a subdued way his sound is still very "Doc". I'd say listen to how he approaches notes and see what you can gleen. I think it would be a formidable task to try and match his overall playing. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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DaveH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | I think Doc's unique sound comes from a combination of the physical tools he was born with, his neuromuscular feedback loop and his personality and musical sensibilities.
I've long surmised that Doc is working with different tools than everyone else. Something about the way his chops respond, the resonance within his body, his digital dexterity in his younger days. Listening to "Chimes Festival" - I don't think there's anyone else who's ever picked up the instrument who could duplicate that performance. I believe that's true with a lot of things he's done.
To a large extent Doc has a very strident approach to playing. Yet even when he's playing in a subdued way his sound is still very "Doc". I'd say listen to how he approaches notes and see what you can gleen. I think it would be a formidable task to try and match his overall playing. |
I like these comments. I think there is much truth to be found therein.
I think if Doc gave you, or anyone else for that matter, his horns and mouthpieces, you would not sound like Doc, nor would anyone else.
Doc is Doc, and there is only one of him. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2619
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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DaveH wrote: | I think if Doc gave you, or anyone else for that matter, his horns and mouthpieces, you would not sound like Doc, nor would anyone else. |
And conversely if you handed Doc any beater pawn shop POS that was basically mechanically functional, he'd still sound like Doc. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Horn safari.... |
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roynj wrote: | Johnathan Barnett wrote: |
Should I check out Bob Reeves mouthpieces with similar specs in cup depth and backbore but more adaptable to my rim size?
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Doc played almost exclusively on Bach 5C or equivalent mouthpieces for most of his career. (From sources such as Tony Scodwell and others.)
But that isn't gonna make you sound like Doc. His sound is that of a player with decades of practicing and playing 6 to 8 hours per day. The advice is to listen a lot to his playing and sound. Get that sound concept inside your head would be the first thing. |
Doc was reputed to have a huge collection of mouthpieces lining the walls of his bathroom (idle rumor). I heard from a former colleague who is a well known mouthpiece maker that he always had several custom orders from Doc and he wsn't the only one. If you want to sound like Doc it probably won't happen on his equipment because you don't share his oral cavity, dental structure and lip thickness and density. I will say that a vintage Severin model Getzen will give you a lot of bang for the buck. I've been playing one for a long time, try other horns (I'll sell you my mint Bach 190-37 in lacquer for a reasonable price) and always end up on the old Getzen. My mentor, Leon Merian, played a slightly modified Getzen 700 Eterna. His sound was absolutely huge, somewhere between Gozzo and Doc with a little Uan Raisey. Patrick makes a good version of Docs Jettone mouthpiece, you might check that out for a starting point. Just remember "90% of playing is half mental." Yogi Berra |
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blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:26 pm Post subject: Horn Safari |
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At 67 I have listened to Docs sound for quite a time and no matter what ax he plays it seems to produce that sound. There's a youtube vid of him playing after his 90th birthday and if you close your eyes it is still Doc. So, what people say about his embouchure and other physical characteristics. His most recent horn, the Destino is supposed to be something special. But, the vintage Getzens are still out there. I played a Severinson Getzen for about three weeks in '71 and loved it. It was a different sound than the Conn 36b I had, but good. The Conn was a bigger sound though. You can imitate anyone but you will have a sound of your own; a trumpet sound based on your embouchure, etc. and that is good too. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2619
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:12 am Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Check out these older threads. Based on what people who worked with or knew Doc say he had a bathtub full of mouthpieces he used at one time or another. |
The first time I met him on the Tonight Show set he was playing a rough-looking Strad and a Giardinelli mp of some sort. That was the first time I'd heard him live after years of hearing recordings of him. What struck me was how huge his sound was live. Same with Maynard. It made me realize even high-quality recordings gave 2-dimensional representations of their sound. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: |
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I saw Doc live in ‘75, again about 7 years ago then again three years later. I’m guessing the first time he was using his Getzen, the last two times Shires. The last two times I was also close enough to see him making mouthpiece changes, including dropping one (guess it happens to all of us)!
Different venues, different horns and different decades, but always that bright, full, resonant sound. Doc is Doc, I believe, and even though he is reputed to be a bit of an equipment freak, I doubt his sound has much to do with what he’s using.
Brad |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5701 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:32 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to throw a comment in from out of left field - take it for what it's worth.
I once attended a clinic where the clinician, a drummer by the name of Jerome Deupree, gave a demonstration that was specifically addressing the irrelevance of equipment on a person's sound. This was at a drum clinic I attended as part of a much larger event in Manchester, NH - many of the clinicians were Boston area players and performers, and many of those clinicians had an association with Berklee College of Music.
He asked for 5 volunteers from the crowd, and once up on stage, he had them each play a minute or so of the basic "Back in Black" drum groove using his kit with his sticks:
8th note hats
Kick drum on 1 & 3
Snare on 2 & 4
Everyone was playing the same thing on the same equipment, but everyone sounded completely different. After they'd each played, he sent 3 of the 5 back to the audience and had the remaining two do it again - they were the two who had the biggest difference in their approach to the instrument.
The point he was trying to illustrate was that equipment is only a small part of what comprises our sound. He said that it's good to look up to fine players, and to look for takeaways from their playing, but that we're better off if we focus on our own craft and getting comfortable with our own sounds. He said that we'll never sound like anyone else because we aren't them, and that trying to sound like someone else is pretty much impossible.
Doc sounds like he does because he's Doc. He might play gear that helps to facilitate his sound, but he's going to sound like that whether he's playing a Getzen with one of his many Bob Reeves mouthpieces, or a Bach Strad with a Bach 1.5C. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:14 am Post subject: |
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To the above, I'd add that even the very best trumpet players have radically different sound from each other in the same live venue, and *none* of them sound like Doc.
I saw the Cancer Blows event in Dallas in 2015 and again this year (though Doc had minor lip injury this time and only acted as an MC rather than playing).
In 2015, despite hearing at least a couple dozen of the most famous names in the business play along with him, and being in his late 80s, I still thought he made the hall ring in a way that none of the rest of them came close to.
Sure, they were all fantastic players, and sounded very good, many of whom had more strength than he does at this stage in his career, but everybody in the audience was talking about Doc's sound, and standing in line afterward for his autograph.
Oh, btw, he changed mouthpieces at least a dozen times or so during his part of the show, and sounded fantastic on all of them. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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