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VintageFTW Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:39 pm Post subject: Slurring Fluidity |
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Something I have always wondered is why some people's slurs are more fluid than other's. What I mean by this is some people just jump from one note to another with no sound in between while others, such as myself, have a certain quality to their slurring, almost like the articulation on a rotary trumpet. It's really hard to describe, but if you know what I'm talking about then either you do it yourself or you are familiar with it. Please do make some input on this matter.
Thanks,
VintageFTW _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:56 am Post subject: |
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If you want more fluid slurs, then you should practice slurring faster - Bai Lin, Colin, etc.
When I practice flexibility exercises, I often will take them at three tempos:
1) Slow, making sure I "hit" or "grip" every note
2) Fast, aiming for a fluid shape across all the notes
3) Extremely fast, just "skipping" across each note like a stone over a pond
If you do your flex exercises like the above, you'll eventually develop the ability to make your slurs behave however you like.
I hope that the above is helpful. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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Arbanator Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2008 Posts: 115 Location: McLean VA
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Based on my teacher’s advice, I’ve been trying to correct this by finding within my embouchure the tipping point between two partials, rather like a razor-edged fulcrum for a teeter totter with a partial on each side . I then try to alternate between the two by making minimal adjustments within my mouth. This seems to be smoothing my slurs out, but I am still working to improve. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Slow down.
Begin with small intervals. i.e. 1/2 steps
Sing the interval.
Play the interval. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Slurring Fluidity |
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VintageFTW wrote: | Something I have always wondered is why some people's slurs are more fluid than other's. |
Lots of practice. My first trumpet teacher made a big deal out of learning to do lip slurs cleanly and accurately. He assigned exercises out of Schlossberg's long tones section and taught coordination of lips and tongue level using the right amount of air to make the connection as smooth as possible.
I remember I wanted to jump into the faster, more complicated slurring exercises ASAP, but he wanted to hear me get the simple ones working well first. He had amazing control over his slurs, and I could tell from his demos that I had lots of work to do.
These days I alternate working on slurs out of Schlossberg, Lowell Little, Arban, Irons, Bai Lin and Franquin. Franquin's approach is the most deliberate, with lots of work on simple slurs to get them working well before moving on to the typical exercises (and some crazy difficult ones that I set aside). In his text, he explained why he starts with such easy exercises, basically to ensure a clean, smooth connection across any interval before launching into the busier exercises. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:17 am Post subject: |
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I think slurring quality begins with a strong sense of pitch centers. First you have to become super aware of the pitch center so that the embouchure snaps immediately to it. Then perform flexibility exercises with the goal of making the transitions as instantaneous as possible. Folks that do this well sometimes sound a bit like they're lightly tonguing when they slur because it's so sudden. Without this work it's really easy to have sloppy transitions.
FWIW I credit the Stamp method and my teacher, a longtime student of Stamp for helping me make progress in this area. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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When I am practicing slurring I am always listening for the sound between the pitches. Connection is the secret. |
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VintageFTW Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Oops. Let me clarify. I wasn't asking HOW to make my slurs more fluid, because I'm not lacking in that department. What I was asking is why some people have very smooth, fluidly connected slurs while others have slurs akin to pressing down a valve. From what I have seen, some people have this as a natural trait while some don't. Why is that?
*EDIT: That sound between the pitches, that's what I'm talking about! Some people seem to have this sound while others have no sound between pitches. Why?
*RE-EDIT: When I refer to the sound, I don't mean bad slurring. In fact, having this trait seems to be most desirable. It makes lyrical playing more lyrical, and other playing flow better. _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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trumpet56 wrote: | When I am practicing slurring I am always listening for the sound between the pitches. Connection is the secret. |
+1 I find that practicing skurs as slow glissandos on the mouthpiece is helpful. It encourages constant airflow through the slur as well as buzzing the right pitch on the notes. |
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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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*EDIT: That sound between the pitches, that's what I'm talking about! Some people seem to have this sound while others have no sound between pitches. Why?
That's very difficult to question to answer. This sound happens between the notes when I experience my slurring and overall performance at its most connected and flexible. To accomplish this I need to be playing in the "sweet spot" (center) of each note
My own conclusion is that the vibrating air column contains the overtones of both pitches. My teacher once said, "play through the ends of your notes". This concept took quite a long time to experience. Kind of Zen like. |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Are you referring to slurring as in scale or melodic passages??? I didn't see a reference to "lip trilling, just slurring...)
Most of the problems encountered in such passages are from a lack of a constant and steady pulse causing some notes within to be uneven. Taking any of the Clarke Tech exercises, for example: I always advocate setting a metronome for an eighth note pulse rather than quarter note and start slower than one believes is necessary. This will point out the minute rushing/dragging that happens between more difficult fingering passages. I also advocate single tonguing the exercise with the eighth note pulse- the tongue gernerally operates in a fairly strict rhythmic pattern because there are no difficult fingerings for it to negotiate. Using either/both methods, the hang-ups that can cause a "lack of fluidity" are usually obvious, Then, of course the player must now take the time to work them out... From the teacher standpoint, that's often the tough part. Good luck. |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Slurring Fluidity |
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oops |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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VintageFTW wrote: | Oops. Let me clarify. I wasn't asking HOW to make my slurs more fluid, because I'm not lacking in that department. What I was asking is why some people have very smooth, fluidly connected slurs while others have slurs akin to pressing down a valve. From what I have seen, some people have this as a natural trait while some don't. Why is that?
*EDIT: That sound between the pitches, that's what I'm talking about! Some people seem to have this sound while others have no sound between pitches. Why?
*RE-EDIT: When I refer to the sound, I don't mean bad slurring. In fact, having this trait seems to be most desirable. It makes lyrical playing more lyrical, and other playing flow better. |
because |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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In my own playing, I see examples of both. Totally mouthpiece dependant.
On my best high note / lead mpc there is a slightly wider, flatter rim, and that precise "click" as I cross a partial, attempting a smooth slur. No matter what I do. I can pull my hair out practicing and worrying this to death, to no avail.
On a more standard rim I can attempt the same goal but with FAR less effort, and slur like butter. Fortunately for me, any situation that pays me for playing where I really need my lead mpc., I don't actually need to slur smoothly. Even though I'd like to be able to. I have yet to find the magic mpc that lets me do it all; I find every mpc is a compromise. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Slurring Fluidity |
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VintageFTW wrote: | Something I have always wondered is why some people's slurs are more fluid than other's. What I mean by this is some people just jump from one note to another with no sound in between while others, such as myself, have a certain quality to their slurring, almost like the articulation on a rotary trumpet. It's really hard to describe, but if you know what I'm talking about then either you do it yourself or you are familiar with it. Please do make some input on this matter.
Thanks,
VintageFTW |
I know exactly what you are talking about and I help my students overcome this all the time. And I like your use of the word "fluidity" - it's a good descriptor for what you are writing about.
Those with good fluidity in their flexibilities and/or slurs are employing proper tongue arch. Those who have a rather harsh transition between notes in flexibility exercises are not arching their tongues up and forward enough.
If you care to get together for a few minutes via Skype I'd be happy to help you with this and show you the difference in how smooth flexibilities are with proper tongue arch compared to having the tongue too flat in the mouth. Just click on the e-mail button down below (no charge for a one-time-get-together - Merry Christmas and/or Happy Hanukkah!).
If you don't have a webcam, a real good one is available for just $54 (it's the one I use to give Skype Lessons):
https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Widescreen-Calling-Recording-Desktop/dp/B006JH8T3S
Cheers,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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