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OldHorn Regular Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 Posts: 90
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:44 pm Post subject: Flugelhorn: ACB Doubler's vs. Carol Brass |
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Just wondering if anyone has played both of these horns and can comment on the differences/similarities on both of them. I'll be playing in a duo with just a keyboardist, and I'm looking for a softer, darker, fluffier tone.
Also, anyone know what the bore size is on the ACB? I can't find that info on their site.
Thanks |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2331 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:06 am Post subject: |
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I can't help you with bore.. but to me the ACB looked and felt like a copy of the old Yamaha's
My experience with one ACB, was that it sounded wonderful but it was not in-tune with itself and I didn't want to deal with that. My other concern is materials - quality instruments age well, cheap ones break down-- but for the money a worthy instrument.
Carol side by side is a much better instrument, better feel, better pitch - but I would expect that for the price. Again, though, my concerns over materials used-longevity. I have no experience with CarolBrass long term.
I bought an inexpensive Chinese trumpet on a whim, I found it at Musikmesse, it played really well, and served me well as a student trumpet for a couple of beginners and as an emergency backup/beater trumpet. But has aged poorly-cheap metals don't clean or repair well and parts have worn rapidly in comparison to everything else I own.
What about looking for a used Yamaha, Kanstul, Conn, Getzen.. ? similar cost, but reputable instruments. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Zaferis
Quick question for you: Was this one of the older generation horns or one of the newest (6 months or so) generation horns? The only reason I ask is that the newest generation of horns is much, much better.
Also in 8 years of selling we have only heard about the valve guides giving out on the ACB. Pretty good IMO.
Of course anyone with specific questions about the horns can call us at 781-944-6247 or email info@austincustombrass.com (I don't post here that often as the shop/performing keep me a "bit" busy).
Best regards,
-T _________________ http://austincustombrass.biz
http://trentaustinmusic.com
http://instagram.com/austincustombrass
This acct will be deactivated as of March 2021. email info@austincustombass.com |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2331 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: |
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TrentAustin wrote: | Zaferis
Quick question for you: Was this one of the older generation horns or one of the newest (6 months or so) generation horns? The only reason I ask is that the newest generation of horns is much, much better.
Also in 8 years of selling we have only heard about the valve guides giving out on the ACB. Pretty good IMO. |
It was October - I can't tell you what vintage.. just that the intonation issues were beyond I was willing to accept.
Since then I've purchased a Kanstul.. yes, significantly more cost, but beyond the great tone, I can play a scale and not have to fudge 5 out of 8 of the notes _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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GuidoCorona Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2014 Posts: 377 Location: Summerville, SC
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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A useful feature of Carolbrass flugels are the two lead pipes included with each instrument imported in the US by the US distributor (Doug Teeter)... In addition to the standard pipe for large American / Yamaha / Morse taper, there is a pipe that lets you use trumpet mouthpieces.
And, if you were seeking the darkest possible tone, go for the Carolbrass CFL-9990... I believe that it is entirely built with red brass.
G. _________________ Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
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trumpet.trader Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2017 Posts: 200
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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If you look hard enough there are great buys out there. The advent of the internet has made the world much smaller and with a little looking you can find just about anything.
Besides eBay, trumpet herald, and retail stores online, I’ve found some amazing buys through craigslist, pawnshops online, good will and other such places.
Finding a good used Yamaha, Benge, or Getzen flugelhorn in the price range of new import horns like you mentioned are found more often than you think.
You’d do better with a more name brand horn like I mentioned for many reasons. Beyond quality, build, and finding parts and repairmen willing to work on them, resale is always better with a name brand.
And if you save a couple hundred dollars and wait a little, you can easily find a great Yamaha, Getzen, or Benge in the $800-$1000 range. |
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OldHorn Regular Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 Posts: 90
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all of your replies so far.
Zaferis, I'm sorry you had problems with the ACB, but that's exactly the real world type of feedback I'm looking for. I've read nothing but praise for the ACB, with some reviews comparing it to $2,000 horns. I'm comparing it to all horns, no matter what they cost. I'm just trying to get as much info so I can make an informed purchase of something.
I'm leery of buying a used horn online that I can't try out. I've checked locally within a 100 radius and didn't find any pro level horns that interested me.
I'm a comeback player, 20 years off the horn, but I feel it's time to pick it up again. I'm retired and money isn't the issue. I can buy an Adams, Kanstul, Conn, etc... but I'm trying to be honest with myself and have been asking myself if a top of the line horn is more than I need.
I know I would be happy with a top of the line horn, but I'm starting at the bottom of the list and working my way up. I don't want to buy something now and want something different in 6 or 8 months.
Sometimes it's tough being honest with yourself, but either way it's a nice problem to have. |
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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If you can buy an Adams, buy one. They are unsurpassed!
The Adams are the best flugels in the world, and I have played everything out there (and owned everything as well).
We are happy the ACB flugels are so popular and work hard at them to continue to improve them. The most recent order of 200 is almost sold out but we still have a few left. They are a bargain instrument that is IMO far better than the price tag although honestly can't compare to a super horn like an Adams, Kanstul 1525, Van Laar, etc. They fit a need for most players looking for a good horn that won't let them down. 8 years selling them and great reviews tell me they are fitting a need for many players.
As always if you want additional info on the horn anyone is welcomed to call the shop or email anytime!
Best regards,
T _________________ http://austincustombrass.biz
http://trentaustinmusic.com
http://instagram.com/austincustombrass
This acct will be deactivated as of March 2021. email info@austincustombass.com |
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NMex Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 567 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Old Horn,
If you’ve not played flugelhorn before, some can take some getting used to so far as exactly where the notes are. I’ve owned a couple of flugels and played a few more and I liked the ACB I owned. I really would recommend calling and talking to the guys at ACB. They’ve got some new ACB’s that I’m hearing good things about. The Brasspires are nice. I’ve purchased one of those as well. Then of course they have the Adams line and a whole lot in between. They’re great guys to work with.
Regards,
Mario _________________ Brasspire 923 LT
ACB TA-2 |
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OldHorn Regular Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 Posts: 90
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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I've played flugels before. I had a Getzen (896?) 4 valve that I bought around 1975, someone broke into my car and stole that and my Selmer K-modified. That was a bad day.
Then I played a Yamaha 631. It was a good horn, good intonation, but the tone I had was "trumpet-like". Now I'm looking for a "smokier, fluffier" sound.
Trent, what's the bore of the ACB? |
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TrentAustin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 Posts: 5485 Location: KC MO
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Christophomicus Regular Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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TrentAustin wrote: |
Quick question for you: Was this one of the older generation horns or one of the newest (6 months or so) generation horns? The only reason I ask is that the newest generation of horns is much, much better.
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Trent,
I have an older ACB Doubler's from maybe 2012-ish. Are the newer models a significant step up? I love my old one but am always looking for another horn to add to my absurd collection. _________________ -Bach 180-37LR, B&S Challenger 3137/2, Getzen Eterna, Conn Constellation
-Bach Stradivarius 184ML, CarolBrass 3880 GSS-BB-SLB
-ACB Doubler's Flugel |
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trumpetlane Regular Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Posts: 49 Location: Ooltewah, TN
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:43 am Post subject: |
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I purchased two ACB Doubler Flugels last spring. I am super pleased with the purchase! It was cool to purchase two at a time because I could test for consistency. I found them to be exactly the same and very consistent! That says a lot to me. The only intonation issues I found was the the high G (just above the staff) was a bit sharp. This could be fixed by either lipping down or 1&3 alternate fingering. I compared the ACB to my Getzen, and a Yamaha.
Personally, I like each of them for different reasons. It is simply a matter of preference. Trent is right, there are some high end horns out there that are superior, but these Doubler's certainly get the job done. Overall, I was pleased with the ACB quality and sound and found Trent to be wonderful to work with. _________________ Gregory Lindquist
Educator, Conductor, Performer
Bb - XO 1602S-R
C - Jupiter XO 1624s
D - Yamaha YTR-751
Cornet - Yamaha YCR-231
Flugel - Getzen 895 Eterna
Pic - Getzen 940 Eterna w/ Blackburn leadpipes
Stork Vacchiano Mouthpieces |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2416 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: |
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trumpetlane wrote: | I purchased two ACB Doubler Flugels last spring. I am super pleased with the purchase! It was cool to purchase two at a time because I could test for consistency. I found them to be exactly the same and very consistent! That says a lot to me. The only intonation issues I found was the the high G (just above the staff) was a bit sharp. This could be fixed by either lipping down or 1&3 alternate fingering. I compared the ACB to my Getzen, and a Yamaha.
Personally, I like each of them for different reasons. It is simply a matter of preference. Trent is right, there are some high end horns out there that are superior, but these Doubler's certainly get the job done. Overall, I was pleased with the ACB quality and sound and found Trent to be wonderful to work with. |
I like trumpetlane's reply. I played an ACB flugelhorn last year, during a local trumpet hang. The horn was owned by trickg. The intonation was reasonable, similar to other 631-style horns. The workmanship and valves were good. It's not a high-end flugelhorn. But for the money, it certainly gets the job done.
EDIT: I just read Dieter Z's reply. I believe the ACB flugel I played also had Yamaha valve springs and a Yamaha lead pipe.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Last edited by TrumpetMD on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Christophomicus wrote: | TrentAustin wrote: |
Quick question for you: Was this one of the older generation horns or one of the newest (6 months or so) generation horns? The only reason I ask is that the newest generation of horns is much, much better.
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Trent,
I have an older ACB Doubler's from maybe 2012-ish. Are the newer models a significant step up? I love my old one but am always looking for another horn to add to my absurd collection. |
I also have an older ACB Doubler Flugel. Don't know how old it is. Was the time before Trent put his name on the instrument. I replaced the valve springs and leadpipe with Yamaha originals.
I only play occasionally Flugel. Actually, I am the 'official' Flugel player in our orchestra, since I am the only one that owns a Flugel.
Haven't had a chance to compare the ACB to others, but I just love the way it plays and sounds. Also got loads of compliments on the sound during the last time I played it in the orchestra and church.
For me the ACB doubler is all I ever will need in a Flugel. No real issues with intonations here. Using Wick no letter and ACB mpcs. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I had an ACB Doubler's. It was a good, solid flugel that did what I needed it to do.Especially at that price point! I had an older Carol flugel at some point. Maybe a 6 out of 10. Nowadays, I hear they are much better.
But I truly found a 'diamond in the rough':
http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/manchester-brass-pro-flugelhorn-with-gold-brass-bell/
I just wrote in a review on it. It's actually caused me to play a lot more flugel on my jazz gigs since I like it so much. And it's not just me, my playing colleauges (both trumpet, and non-trumpet players) really noticed it right away when I started to play it. Just the sound and fluidity - and the clarity. Very mouthpiece ressponsive too. You can get a lot of different colors out of it depending on the mouthpiece. I think I snagged it used for a ridiculously low $$ of like $700-$800 dollars. If you are a jazzer, I think you would be tickled pink by it. It's like if you had a really good Couesnon flugel from the 60's with no intonation issues or anything. I'll be playing it all night tonight on my NYE jazz gig! Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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Domino Regular Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2010 Posts: 19
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:22 am Post subject: |
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I love my ACB flugel that I bought in 2011, but whenever it hasn't been played for a few days the valves stick. Some times really hard. I use Al Cass valve oil on this horn (and Hetman Classic on my vintage horns).
Is there another valve oil you'd recommend that would alleviate this problem? _________________ 1952 Olds Super Trumpet
1956 Olds Studio Trumpet
1928 Holton Revelation Trumpet
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Same here, except mine is put away for several month at a time. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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trumpet.trader wrote: | If you look hard enough there are great buys out there. The advent of the internet has made the world much smaller and with a little looking you can find just about anything.
Besides eBay, trumpet herald, and retail stores online, I�ve found some amazing buys through craigslist, pawnshops online, good will and other such places.
Finding a good used Yamaha, Benge, or Getzen flugelhorn in the price range of new import horns like you mentioned are found more often than you think.
You�d do better with a more name brand horn like I mentioned for many reasons. Beyond quality, build, and finding parts and repairmen willing to work on them, resale is always better with a name brand.
And if you save a couple hundred dollars and wait a little, you can easily find a great Yamaha, Getzen, or Benge in the $800-$1000 range. |
I realize that this is an older thread, but my comments might be helpful to future horn seekers. First, I should say that I'm a friend of Trent Austin's and have bought several horns from him, but I'm not being compensated, nor have I been asked to make these comments.
I recently bought a used Getzen Eterna Flugel from Trent for a good price. The horn is EXACTLY as described on his web site and is excellent. I know from my experience with him that I can make a LOT of progress with him long distance describing what I'm looking for in a horn's playing characteristics. He's very good at sussing out what a player needs. So if you're looking (especially long distance) talk to Trent or somebody like him if you know someone. They can be very helpful in this internet age.....
keith |
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