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homecookin
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 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | I don’t think it IS a philosophical difference, say you are playing a quarter note, quarter rest, quarter note, quarter rest. The air is not stopping on the quarter rest??
Or you play four consecutive quarter notes, whether you stop the note with your tongue or just stop the air flow, if there is any space between the notes at all, isn’t that a cessation (albeit brief) of air?
Brad |
Not sure if I completely follow you (I thought you were saying that you tell students to NEVER stop the air with the tongue?) but of course the air stops on a rest, because we aren't playing. I certainly wouldn't have my student physically cut their air off on a rest though. When playing four consecutive quarter notes, I would say there is a cessation of air to the arperture, but not a cessation of air from the "source". At lest that's how I think of it.
When I said philosophical difference, I meant teaching philosophy, not playing philosophy. I get the feeling that we are approaching a common problem for students from a different angle, and I'm sure that as long as both approaches are supported by a playing demonstration and good feedback from a teacher, the student will get the point. |
If you are teaching beginning band students out of any beginning band method book, 9 times out of 10 the first lines that they play will consist of a first measure of a whole note followed by a second measure consisting of a whole note rest.
And usually the line consists of eight measures... four measures containing whole notes, four measures containing whole note rests.
Using this example, teaching the student to stop the tone
by using the tongue would be...
#1 counterproductive
#2 very unmusical
#3 pedagogically unsound
Using the above example, when the student has held the
whole note for for beats, in order to stop the sound of the
tone, the student simply stops blowing.
To stop the sound of the tone by thrusting
the tongue forward in the mouth creates all kind of
fundamental problems.
I'm not really sure what you mean by" philosophical differences".
I don't really think it's about philosophy at all, I think it really has to
do with just teaching correct fundamentals. |
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Rompson
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| homecookin wrote: | | Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | I don’t think it IS a philosophical difference, say you are playing a quarter note, quarter rest, quarter note, quarter rest. The air is not stopping on the quarter rest??
Or you play four consecutive quarter notes, whether you stop the note with your tongue or just stop the air flow, if there is any space between the notes at all, isn’t that a cessation (albeit brief) of air?
Brad |
Not sure if I completely follow you (I thought you were saying that you tell students to NEVER stop the air with the tongue?) but of course the air stops on a rest, because we aren't playing. I certainly wouldn't have my student physically cut their air off on a rest though. When playing four consecutive quarter notes, I would say there is a cessation of air to the arperture, but not a cessation of air from the "source". At lest that's how I think of it.
When I said philosophical difference, I meant teaching philosophy, not playing philosophy. I get the feeling that we are approaching a common problem for students from a different angle, and I'm sure that as long as both approaches are supported by a playing demonstration and good feedback from a teacher, the student will get the point. |
If you are teaching beginning band students out of any beginning band method book, 9 times out of 10 the first lines that they play will consist of a first measure of a whole note followed by a second measure consisting of a whole note rest.
And usually the line consists of eight measures... four measures containing whole notes, four measures containing whole note rests.
Using this example, teaching the student to stop the tone
by using the tongue would be...
#1 counterproductive
#2 very unmusical
#3 pedagogically unsound
Using the above example, when the student has held the
whole note for for beats, in order to stop the sound of the
tone, the student simply stops blowing.
To stop the sound of the tone by thrusting
the tongue forward in the mouth creates all kind of
fundamental problems.
I'm not really sure what you mean by" philosophical differences".
I don't really think it's about philosophy at all, I think it really has to
do with just teaching correct fundamentals. |
I agree with your post 100%. I said I would never have a student STOP or CUT OFF their air (with tongue, lungs, throat, etc.) ever. But the OP wasn't talking about playing a whole note followed by a whole rest. The OP was talking about playing a phrase and and getting out of the habit of attacking each note in the phrase with the diaphragm. Which is why I wondered and asked: what other way is there to separate notes in a phrase without tonguing, except to do exactly what the OP is trying to get away from? |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | I don’t think it IS a philosophical difference, say you are playing a quarter note, quarter rest, quarter note, quarter rest. The air is not stopping on the quarter rest??
Or you play four consecutive quarter notes, whether you stop the note with your tongue or just stop the air flow, if there is any space between the notes at all, isn’t that a cessation (albeit brief) of air?
Brad |
Not sure if I completely follow you (I thought you were saying that you tell students to NEVER stop the air with the tongue?) but of course the air stops on a rest, because we aren't playing. I certainly wouldn't have my student physically cut their air off on a rest though. When playing four consecutive quarter notes, I would say there is a cessation of air to the arperture, but not a cessation of air from the "source". At lest that's how I think of it.
When I said philosophical difference, I meant teaching philosophy, not playing philosophy. I get the feeling that we are approaching a common problem for students from a different angle, and I'm sure that as long as both approaches are supported by a playing demonstration and good feedback from a teacher, the student will get the point. |
To clarify: no, I never have a student stop a note with the tongue, that was just an example.
I suspect we ARE both aiming towards the same goals for the students, ie, an open clear distortion-free, musical sound. But IMO, using the tongue to stop the air flow makes it very difficult to accomplish that.
Brad
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Brad361
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| JoseLindE4 wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | Just say DAH DAH DAH. The air NEVER stops. |
This. Use vocal production and diction as the model. Pronounce and connect your notes like a singer. |
Sort of approaching a beating a dead horse level here, but I believe the air DOES stop, singing or playing an instrument.
Tongue four separated quarter notes, the air stops during the separation. It’s still in the lungs, but it briefly stops during the separation between notes, if it never stops flowing the tone does not stop. Imagine a tank of oxygen with a valve. Unless you stop the air with the valve, it never stops flowing. IMO, using the tongue as the valve results is an overly percussive sound, which worsens as length of note value decreases and tempo increases. What you will hear is “daht daht daht” instead of “dah dah dah.”
Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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homecookin
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Rompson...
Okay, I must have misunderstood your post...Sorry
Concerning the OP's host, that is why I suggested
that he practice LONG TONES !!!
He needs to learn to play through musical phrases
with a steady stream of air.
If there is a quarter note rest in that phrase I would
still NOT stop the note with the tongue.
Practicing long tones is the best way to develop breath control. |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Back to the OP, who raised the question of mechanics and how the tongue moves to articulate. I would suggest he does a search of KTM, k tongue modified. Ultimately it may prove to not be ideal for him for whatever reason, but you don't really know until you try. Experimenting with that raises awareness of what we do, and really helped me develop. |
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Rompson
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Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | I don’t think it IS a philosophical difference, say you are playing a quarter note, quarter rest, quarter note, quarter rest. The air is not stopping on the quarter rest??
Or you play four consecutive quarter notes, whether you stop the note with your tongue or just stop the air flow, if there is any space between the notes at all, isn’t that a cessation (albeit brief) of air?
Brad |
Not sure if I completely follow you (I thought you were saying that you tell students to NEVER stop the air with the tongue?) but of course the air stops on a rest, because we aren't playing. I certainly wouldn't have my student physically cut their air off on a rest though. When playing four consecutive quarter notes, I would say there is a cessation of air to the arperture, but not a cessation of air from the "source". At lest that's how I think of it.
When I said philosophical difference, I meant teaching philosophy, not playing philosophy. I get the feeling that we are approaching a common problem for students from a different angle, and I'm sure that as long as both approaches are supported by a playing demonstration and good feedback from a teacher, the student will get the point. |
To clarify: no, I never have a student stop a note with the tongue, that was just an example.
I suspect we ARE both aiming towards the same goals for the students, ie, an open clear distortion-free, musical sound. But IMO, using the tongue to stop the air flow makes it very difficult to accomplish that.
Brad |
Just to be clear, (this is going to sound like a dumb question but I'm not trying to pull a fast one) what would you say happens to the air flow during the act of tonguing? I would say the air is stopped, or at least interrupted. I think everyone can agree that it doesn't continue uninterrupted.
I'll throw in some advice for the OP to help keep this on track. Assuming you have a good grasp of trumpet basics so far, play long notes softly and see if you can gently brush the airstream with your tongue while keeping the note steady. get used to the feeing of the tongue moving while keeping everything else steady. |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | Rompson wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | I don’t think it IS a philosophical difference, say you are playing a quarter note, quarter rest, quarter note, quarter rest. The air is not stopping on the quarter rest??
Or you play four consecutive quarter notes, whether you stop the note with your tongue or just stop the air flow, if there is any space between the notes at all, isn’t that a cessation (albeit brief) of air?
Brad |
Not sure if I completely follow you (I thought you were saying that you tell students to NEVER stop the air with the tongue?) but of course the air stops on a rest, because we aren't playing. I certainly wouldn't have my student physically cut their air off on a rest though. When playing four consecutive quarter notes, I would say there is a cessation of air to the arperture, but not a cessation of air from the "source". At lest that's how I think of it.
When I said philosophical difference, I meant teaching philosophy, not playing philosophy. I get the feeling that we are approaching a common problem for students from a different angle, and I'm sure that as long as both approaches are supported by a playing demonstration and good feedback from a teacher, the student will get the point. |
To clarify: no, I never have a student stop a note with the tongue, that was just an example.
I suspect we ARE both aiming towards the same goals for the students, ie, an open clear distortion-free, musical sound. But IMO, using the tongue to stop the air flow makes it very difficult to accomplish that.
Brad |
Just to be clear, (this is going to sound like a dumb question but I'm not trying to pull a fast one) what would you say happens to the air flow during the act of tonguing? I would say the air is stopped, or at least interrupted. I think everyone can agree that it doesn't continue uninterrupted.
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I agree.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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EBjazz
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Getting out of the habit of blowing puffs of air? |
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| ackmondual wrote: | | I started off on trumpet, and ended up blowing puffs of air instead of the suggested method of blowing one continuous stream interrupted by your tongue. Were there any tips and tricks to get away from this? |
Practice a simple exercise, such as an eighth-note scale, 3 ways:
1. slurred
2. tongued, with each note separate and distinct
3. tongued, with each note connected as seamlessly at possible.
The first way will help you develop the smooth, continuous lip vibration you're after.
The second will help you develop proper tonguing mechanics. Don't worry that there are spaces between the notes. That type of articulation is called for in lots of music and you need to know how to do it.
The third is perhaps the most difficult to learn, but it's an extremely useful skill to develop. The idea is that the sound should seem to be continuous, like a ribbon that the tongue lightly touches but does not break. Don't be discouraged if you have trouble keeping the sound going smoothly with a consistent articulation; that's normal, and you need to allow yourself time to work on this and get better.
| ackmondual wrote: | | I take it that how you tongue can vary is left to us to find out, as it varies per individual (although I recall striking the upper front teeth is a good rule of thumb)? |
No, the tongue should not strike the teeth to articulate. This is a complicated topic that brass players will debate about endlessly, and the actual placement can vary by musical situation, but it's safe to say that the tongue should articulate higher up and further back than the teeth. (I tend to articulate around that ridge on the roof of the mouth behind the upper teeth, and the exact placement varies by type of articulation effect I need.)
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:32 am Post subject: |
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My analogy is that the airflow is constant, like water from a faucet, and the tongue behaves like a finger flicking through the flow of water. It is not like turning the water on and off (tongue stopping the airflow). In fact, you actually have to blow a little harder when tonguing, but many students tend to back off and that only slows tonguing down and causes poorer attacks. The airflow helps move the tongue.
IME/IMO - Don
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Billy B
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | My analogy is that the airflow is constant, like water from a faucet, and the tongue behaves like a finger flicking through the flow of water. It is not like turning the water on and off (tongue stopping the airflow). In fact, you actually have to blow a little harder when tonguing, but many students tend to back off and that only slows tonguing down and causes poorer attacks. The airflow helps move the tongue.
IME/IMO - Don |
Or think how an auctioneer articulates yet never stops the sound. (Bill Adam analogy)
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homecookin
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | My analogy is that the airflow is constant, like water from a faucet, and the tongue behaves like a finger flicking through the flow of water. It is not like turning the water on and off (tongue stopping the airflow). In fact, you actually have to blow a little harder when tonguing, but many students tend to back off and that only slows tonguing down and causes poorer attacks. The airflow helps move the tongue.
IME/IMO - Don |
This !!! |
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homecookin
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | My analogy is that the airflow is constant, like water from a faucet, and the tongue behaves like a finger flicking through the flow of water. It is not like turning the water on and off (tongue stopping the airflow). In fact, you actually have to blow a little harder when tonguing, but many students tend to back off and that only slows tonguing down and causes poorer attacks. The airflow helps move the tongue.
IME/IMO - Don |
Or think how an auctioneer articulates yet never stops the sound. (Bill Adam analogy) |
And This !!! |
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trumpet.trader
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: |
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As we are bloviating on and on, I think most of the blather in this thread is saying the same stuff.
Perhaps my comment about the role of the tongue was misunderstood and started this long thread.
My point was to say in order to stop hoofing notes and using lungs to start and stop pitches and notes, the tongue rather should interrupt a steady stream of air to start and stop notes.
The idea of blowing out a candle that is several feet away from you is a way to think of having a steady stream of air. And using the tongue to interrupt the air flow is a way to not start and stop lungs from creating a stream of air to start and stop notes.
I write pretty clear and I really am puzzled how there is so much confusion over my post. |
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:05 am Post subject: |
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A little more confusion.
The tongue, in and by itself does not make a sound. It is rather the immediate vibration of the lip that produce the first attack, and the interruption of the wind by the tongue that causes the lip to stop for a split second and start again, that produces succeeding attacks.
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Brad361
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet.trader wrote: | As we are bloviating on and on, I think most of the blather in this thread is saying the same stuff.
Perhaps my comment about the role of the tongue was misunderstood and started this long thread.
My point was to say in order to stop hoofing notes and using lungs to start and stop pitches and notes, the tongue rather should interrupt a steady stream of air to start and stop notes.
The idea of blowing out a candle that is several feet away from you is a way to think of having a steady stream of air. And using the tongue to interrupt the air flow is a way to not start and stop lungs from creating a stream of air to start and stop notes.
I write pretty clear and I really am puzzled how there is so much confusion over my post. |
“Bloviating” and “blather”?
Guess you’re correct, how could discussions about trumpet articulation, in the trumpet fundamentals section on a trumpet forum be acceptable?
🙄
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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trumpetteacher1
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet.trader wrote: | | As we are bloviating on and on, I think most of the blather in this thread is saying the same stuff. |
This.
| Quote: | Perhaps my comment about the role of the tongue was misunderstood and started this long thread.
My point was to say in order to stop hoofing notes and using lungs to start and stop pitches and notes, the tongue rather should interrupt a steady stream of air to start and stop notes. |
Yup. One person misinterpreted you, and it went downhill from there. Too many people here eager to show others how wrong they are.
Jeff |
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm... I can delete my posts and related to avoid adding to the bloviating.
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PH
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88727&highlight=bubbles |
This!
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