Picc Mouthpiece Quest

cgaiii · Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:26 pm Post subject: Picc Mouthpiece Quest

After getting such great information here when I got my Schilke X3L last June and coming up with a mouthpiece that really works for me (Bach 1.5C with a 26 throat (the 1.5 C being closest to my old 1960's 5C)), I experienced phenomenal growth in my playing. This setup encouraged more relaxed playing, expanding my musical range (as opposed to squeak it out range) by an octave and opened up all kinds of musical possibilities. A lot may be because I love playing this horn and setup and look forward to practicing each day (after so many years of playing), but I think that is because it works so well for me. (A big thank you to all who helped.)
This all got me to thinking (horn junkie that I am) I would like the ease of fingering and note differentiation that comes with a picc when playing up high, and keeping with the large bore theme of the X3L, I picked up an excellent used Kanstul 920 for my first picc. I read a lot about picc mouthpieces and got a Bach 3E cornet piece as being closest to the rim, etc. I am used to but in a picc mouthpiece. I have also tried the Kanstul P that came with the horn. Since I have the trumpet receivers also, I also tried some of my trumpet mouthpieces.
I can play the picc easiest with my main trumpet mouthpiece (Bach 1.5C 26 throat), decent tone, moderate range. I can play with either of the cornet pieces, but much easier to slip into kazoo mode with them and more work to play with a decent sound. Playing high is about the same on all pieces, though a little easier on the trumpet piece.
Sorry for the long-winded route to my question, but I am not completely satisfied in this quest. I need a direction to explore.
Would it be sensible to get a cornet version of my 1.5C with a 117 backbore and 26 throat (too open? and expensive?)? The shallow cornet pieces encourage gentle playing like the trumpet piece, but are a lot more work. Should I get a 3E cornet with a 26 throat? Or should I keep working with the smaller mouthpieces and assume it is a learning curve?
Any advice even outside of these questions is greatly appreciated.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

zaferis · Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:37 pm Post subject:

I'll throw in my suggestion for a Curry 3P - designed as a picc piece-cornet shank (there is also a version designed with trumpet shank)

The rim is very similar to Bach's, a touch less bite and deeper than a 3E, which I find too shallow and harsh. And the price is right - 60 bucks-ish you can get a top-notch mouthpiece

happy hunting..
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Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

O00Joe · Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:31 am Post subject:

I have used a Bach 7EW and Curry 5P on my Schilke P5-4. I prefer the Curry 5P but I would say they are pretty similar and blow mostly the same. The Curry is just a little bit easier overall. I'm going to pick up a Stork SP6 soon so I'll post back and let you know how that goes. (I'm going for ease and response because a good sound isn't an issue for me.)
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

cheiden · Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:11 am Post subject:

I have the same picc. My Bb piece is a smallish 3C rim on a 1.5C underpart. I don't know if my experience is typical but here's what I've learned.

The horn plays better with a cornet shank mouthpiece. I took the horn to Kanstul to buy the trumpet shank pipes. that's when they told me the horn was optimized for cornet shank. I can play a bit easier with some of the trumpet shank pieces I tried but the sound and response were worse. I do have one friend that likes to use my picc with a trumpet shank 3D and it seems to work for him.

I hate typical picc mouthpieces including the Kanstul P and the Schilke 11AX. I suspect that this is because I have too much lip encroachment for these shallow pieces. My earliest success was with a Yamaha cornet 14C4. I later migrated to an 11C4 then 11B4 (both cornet shank) which are progressively a bit easier to manage. I think there's bound to be better options for me but I haven't found them yet.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

Shark01 · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283

You better pack your mosquito netting, because piccolo mouthpiece safaris can be long and frustrating.

For me, to play most of the A shank literature requires a high F. I don't currently get there with anything I've tried. Everything beneath that involves some sort of trade-off between sound and range.

7 EW - Nice sound, consistent high C (middle C in the staff as written)

Schilke 14A4A - Bigger rim than I like to play, OK sound, pretty good high D but not all that consistent

Stork SM-XV10 (recommended to me by Phyllis in lieu of one of their picc models) - Consistent high D, meh Eb.....sound really suffers below high G (middle G on the staff as written).

Will find my way back to civilization one day hopefully.

rufflicks · Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:14 pm Post subject:

3G VR or 3F VR might be excellent options for you. Stomvi has a trial policy

http://stomvi-usa.com/piccolo-trumpet-mouthpieces/

Best, Jon
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Remember this is supposed to be fun.

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject:

I have a Schilke 14B4x (not as shallow as the A cups, not the tight "a" backbore, but the more open throat and backbore they made for picc -- or so they told me) and Curry 5P. I go back and forth but the Curry 5P is the one that works best most of the time and is closer to your Bach.

I tried a few others I've mostly forgotten but those are the two I stuck with.

FWIWFM - Don
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

Andy Del · Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:04 am Post subject:

Yes, the piccolo mpc safari can be long and costly, both financially and emotionally!

Mine took aver 20 years, and from the P has said, I suspect he may find my solution worked for him.

I use the same rim and cup on all my instruments apart from cornet, flugel and corn da caccia. If the 1.5C mpc feels best, then I suggest to get a 1.5C sized mpc optimised for piccolo.

I found this in a Monette 3 series mouthpiece. Use a AP3 in a prank series with z trumpet shank and a BP3 prank in a cornet shank. the cornet works great on my Kanstul picc. (I use month n just about everything apart from natural trumpet)

Expensive? Yep. Is it worth it to me? Totally and completely, without any doubt.

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

GordonH · Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:36 am Post subject:

Here is what I have used over the years and that has worked:

JK 7DW - like a Bach 7DW but bigger backbore

Monette A15 in cornet shank

James R New S4MS with a Warburton 11* cornet backbore - quite similar in size to the 7DW.

All of these have given me the sound I am looking for and reasonable intonation across the range. The Monette had better intonation

Way back I used a Bach 6 on piccolo trumpet and did some of my best playing on that even though it was a large mouthpiece.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

cgaiii · Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:44 am Post subject:

Thanks to all for so many useful comments , a lot of food for thought.

A couple of follow-up questions:

1. Are the Curry numbers roughly equivalent to the Bach numbers in terms of the rim sizes, shapes? 1.5 = 1.5, 3 = 3?
Same question for Stomvi ...?

2. I see no A15 or AP3 in the Monette chart. I wonder where I could get a look at the specs.

Thanks.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:11 am Post subject:

Curry follows Bach numbers but sizes correspond more closely to the original Mt. Vernon than later editions IIRC. I like his rims better than today's Bach mpcs FWIWFM. I think Mark Curry is making "better than Bach" Bach mpcs.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

cgaiii · Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:57 pm Post subject:

Thanks on the Curry sizes. That brings me around full circle. I play a modern 1.5C (with an enlarged throat) on my Bb but that is because it is closest to my 1960's 5C.
So perhaps I should try a 5P Curry -- does that make sense?
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:07 pm Post subject:

I, and number of others, prefer a slightly smaller mpc on picc but YMMV. Coming from a 1.25C you might want to try a 3P instead. When I ordered I worked with Mark and he sent me a range to try (my normal mpc is around a 3 rim but I settled on a 5P).

HTH - Don
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

cheiden · Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:21 pm Post subject:

I'm also a fan of dropping a size (or two) for the picc.

If you're coming from a modern 1.5C the Curry 3P. might be a good place to start. I liked the one I had but since I was coming from a small vintage Bach 3C (think Yamaha 14B4) it felt too big, almost like a 1.5C (think Yamaha 16C4). If you don't like the wide flat feel of a Bach 3 rim (compared to the Bach 1.5C) then you certainly could consider the Curry 5P whose rim I'm told resembles the feel of the Bach 5C in case you like that feel better.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

Ed Kennedy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187

My choice on my Schilke P5-4: Warburton 6S(Warbornite) with S10* backbore.

Eric Ball · Veteran Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 261

Stork 7P is wonderful!

cgaiii · Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:33 pm Post subject:

How does the depth of the Stork piccolo cup compare to the depth of a Bach E cup?
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

zaferis · Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject:

cgaiii · Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:49 am Post subject:

Thanks for the tip on the Curry sizes. I do not get along well with Bach 3s (modern ones that is, either 3C for the Bb or 3E for the piccolo) for some reason. That made me leery of the Curry 3P, but I will keep the Curry 3 on the list now.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

O00Joe · Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:01 pm Post subject:

I just received my Stork Studio Master SP6 so I gotta resurrect this thread as I said I would.

Note that I use a Schilke P5-4 with a Reeves A adaptor on the stock leadpipe and I have had experience with a Bach 7EW and a Curry 5P.

The Stork SM SP6 is shallower than the previously mentioned but slightly more comfortable, I'd say. It responds SO MUCH easier than either of them and the sound is comparable to the Curry 5P, maybe a little bit brighter but more colorful. Articulation seems about the same. The high range is noticably easier as well. I did have to pull the leadpipe just a tad coming from the Curry 5P. Overall the Stork SP6 is the better mouthpiece for me and I highly recommend.

Now I use my Bach 7EW and Curry 5P as lead/commercial pieces with a trumpet adaptor on my Bb.
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68