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Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Jerry wrote: | The B&S Challenger horns are good horns. However, I don't know what they are going for used, so it's hard for me to say if it's a good bang-for-the-buck.
A variation on the B&S Challenger is the Sonare 800. That's essentially a B&S Challenger II with a Blackburn leadpipe. They are no longer being made. That is a candidate for good bang-for-the-buck professional level horn. |
Horntrader has 4 of them for sale on his website. |
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kevin_soda
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 558
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| neobri wrote: | Thank you all for the recommendations!
A few quick answers to some of the questions brought up above:
*I am looking used, as I don't need to buy new.
*I'm not sure I want a large-bore horn or not. I know how it all correlates on trombone, but still a bit unsure on trumpet.
*As for a mouthpiece, I'm playing something similar to a Bach 1C, but a bit shallower. Seems fine so far.
Maybe a bit more backstory would help. I'm formerly a trombonist with one of the DC Military bands. I have played trumpet before, too, just not professionally. When things are working, I can play reliably up to around a high C-E, and sometimes up to a double C. So I understand my mechanics reasonably well and know how to work on that to make things stronger, more reliable, and more consistent.
Someone said above that the amount of air a low brass player uses is typically much greater, and that is true. That's one of the big adjustments I'm working on.
And I don't think the thread has been particularly unsupportive - but I also understand it's easy to make assumptions because it could be a total beginner on the other end of the line. Rest assured that I know what I know and am endeavoring to learn what I don't. So - back to horns...
The suggestions above are many and varied. I'm borrowing a late 80s 37 at the moment - and it feels very good and solid. I'm surprised at how smooth and dark it is. I thought I wanted something like a 72, but this 37 has started to change my mind. The reason I am strongly considering a B&S is that they're supposed to be highly faithful clones, just assembled better, and so ostensibly more consistent.
I do like Bach trombones, when they're good.
Thanks again for all of the comments and suggestions - I do appreciate each one of you spending your time to chime in and help educate me.
PS - I own two cornets already - so I don't need another one! |
Thanks for the clarification! If you like the 37 you should go for it. 72 bell can be very different depending on the bore and the lead pipe. Sometimes they come with a 43 pipe or sometimes with a 25.
The Challengers are good horns. Definitely a livelier color palette than the Bachs you’ve mentioned. Any of these should bang pretty hard for the buck. As you said about Bach trombones, the trumpets are inconsistent as well.
Best wishes.
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Newbie said he has 2 cornets already so he doesn't need another one. To which I respectfully and humorously reply - Pfft, I own 6! At least 3 of which becomes my favorite at any given time, based on musical application or even just mood. Such an entirely different medium of expression!
So with a Bb you want either a do it all, or a specialized tool. |
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neobri
New Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | Newbie said he has 2 cornets already so he doesn't need another one. To which I respectfully and humorously reply - Pfft, I own 6! At least 3 of which becomes my favorite at any given time, based on musical application or even just mood. Such an entirely different medium of expression!
So with a Bb you want either a do it all, or a specialized tool. |
Right, I want a do-it-all Bb.
And...I have 15 trombones! |
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Craig Swartz
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7770
Location: Des Moines, IA area
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Somewhat off topic, but FWIW- I'd bet good money that If B&S, or anyone else had as many real pro horms out there in the public domain as Bach there'd be all kinds of charges here and elsewhere that their instruments are "inconsistent". Big targets are easy to hit...
Again, I do not play a Bach Bb or C as a regular horn |
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neobri
New Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Swartz wrote: | Somewhat off topic, but FWIW- I'd bet good money that If B&S, or anyone else had as many real pro horms out there in the public domain as Bach there'd be all kinds of charges here and elsewhere that their instruments are "inconsistent". Big targets are easy to hit...
Again, I do not play a Bach Bb or C as a regular horn |
It's a good point. |
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Irving
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1888
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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One correction. The Sonare 800 was made with a Challenger 1, not 2. You can tell from the 3rd valve stopper, which looks like a Bach part. On the Challenger 2 a screw stop is used instead.
The main difference between the horns is the bell. The one has a lightweight bell, and the 2 a heavier bell. At the time the Sonare was being made the Challenger one was dirt cheap, which made it advantageous to use as a base horn. It isn't cheap any more.
I |
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robas92
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Macon, GA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:51 am Post subject: |
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The French Besson Internationals are a good place to start. Look for them to have either Kanstul or USA on them, otherwise they are made in India and those are not so desirable.
You cannot go wrong with a 40s or 50s Olds Ambassador. They are cheap and play well. Things were just made better then. Buesher 400 are great horns. Holton B-47 & 48 are nice too. I just picked up a York that is a hoot to play.
Bach Strad are always a toss up, play before you buy. Yamaha 6335 and 8445 can sometimes be found for cheap.
You cannot go wrong with any Kanstul horns, ie Burbank or French Besson. The Kanstul 700S is definitely a pro entry level horn. It has more resistance than the 900 but still has a great centered sound, intonation and slots well.
Hope this helps....
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Dayton
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Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 2047
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:31 am Post subject: |
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There have been several mentions of Sonare trumpets as offering a good "bang for the buck" ratio. I agree. I've owned the (U.S. made) 801 and 901 models. Very nice, versatile horns along the lines of a Bach Strad 37/25. I believe I paid less than $1,000 each for those horns in mint condition.
I'd put the Blessing BTR-1580 and the Holton T-101-102 (the early models with double braces) in that category as well: Very nice, versatile horns that you should be able to purchase used for under $1,000.
Finally, a Getzen 907 "Proteus" model trumpet. Great horn with (in my opinion) the best valve block available.
In addition, there is always the possibility of finding a used Bach or Yamaha professional-series trumpet at a good price. The asking price for horns in similar condition seems to vary considerably.
Good luck, and happy hunting! |
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Jerry
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Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2163
Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | One correction. The Sonare 800 was made with a Challenger 1, not 2. You can tell from the 3rd valve stopper, which looks like a Bach part. On the Challenger 2 a screw stop is used instead.
The main difference between the horns is the bell. The one has a lightweight bell, and the 2 a heavier bell. At the time the Sonare was being made the Challenger one was dirt cheap, which made it advantageous to use as a base horn. It isn't cheap any more.
I |
I'm not disputing whether the Sonare 800 was built on a Challenger I, II, or something else. However, when I had an 800 for awhile, it sure didn't sound like a lightweight bell to me. There was certainly a lot of heft in the sound to my ears, a lot more heft compared to a first generation Yamaha Artisan Chicago for sure. |
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neobri
New Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Dayton wrote: | | In addition, there is always the possibility of finding a used Bach or Yamaha professional-series trumpet at a good price. The asking price for horns in similar condition seems to vary considerably. |
Believe me, I've noticed. I've seen a considerable spread among Bach 37s. |
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neobri
New Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Oh yeah, what about Wessex, or JP (John Packer)? |
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trumpetlane
Regular Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 49
Location: Ooltewah, TN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Jupiter makes great horns and can be bought for a great price used. Get a newer used one. The JTR700 is a great entry level, 1102 intermediate, and 1602 pro. They are well built, good sound, and blend well.
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Gregory Lindquist
Educator, Conductor, Performer
Bb - XO 1602S-R
C - Jupiter XO 1624s
D - Yamaha YTR-751
Cornet - Yamaha YCR-231
Flugel - Getzen 895 Eterna
Pic - Getzen 940 Eterna w/ Blackburn leadpipes
Stork Vacchiano Mouthpieces |
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Robert Rowe
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 5364
Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Yamaha or Getzen.
~ r2 ~
deplorable  horn player
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Dennis78
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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
Posts: 673
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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I’d say any trumpet. You’ll never know what you want till you’ve tried a bunch out
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a few different ones |
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neobri
New Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you all again for the excellent advice! |
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ALaschiver
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 639
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:23 pm Post subject: Bang for the buck |
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If its truly a pro horn that you wish....many L.A. Benges show up on ebay.
This is truly a great horn..consistent. $800-1000....brilliant, easy to play. (not a UMI horn but a Zig Kanstul horn) so 60's... |
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Dennis78
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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
Posts: 673
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:40 am Post subject: |
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So far I’m enjoying my new Brasspire cornet which came in well under $1000
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a few different ones |
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Irving
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1888
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VintageHorns
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2018
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Seems to me that a bunch of Courtois trumpets have come onto the market at very cheap prices. I know several professionals that swear by their quality and playing performance. Just my 2 cents. |
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