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neobri New Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 9
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Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:37 pm Post subject: Best Bang for the Buck? |
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Hello, Heralders.
I'm primarily a trombonist. I'm looking for a professional-level used Bb trumpet. I'm looking for the best bang for the buck. For whatever reason, the horn that comes to mind most is the B&S Challenger I or II (probably the II).
Any other opinions out there? I am a professional trombonist, but I feel like if I were to really dedicate some quality time on trumpet, I'd be good enough to gig with it.
Suggestions? Thanks! |
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trumpethead Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 444 Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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There's a myriad of good choices...
I just bought a Yamaha 3335S trumpet that plays incredibly well for me.
In fact, way better then several other horns I tried at the same time worth thousands more, including a Bach Strad etc...
Great horn for a cheap price. |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3836 Location: Greece
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Getzen eterna large bore.
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Price range? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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New, Kanstul 700 or 900 are great for the money. B&S are also good horns though likely more costly than the Kanstul.
Otherwise, it's hard to beat a good used Bach or Yamaha pro horn. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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giakara wrote: | Getzen eterna large bore.
Regards |
+1! _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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theslawdawg wrote: | giakara wrote: | Getzen eterna large bore.
Regards |
+1! | and +2 and the Severinson ML (my personal choice) ain't bad. |
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hard to go wrong with Kanstul, Yamaha or Getzen.
I play vintage Conn trumpets, but you sort of have to know a lot about their history to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff. So I would not recommend them, they made some great ones, and some spotty ones. Same with Olds.
My backup trumpet for gigs is a Besson 609, AKA Kanstul 700, as good as my 1969 Conn 60-B. Kanstul builds some really nice horns, especially their Chicago series, as close to a Benge as modern production allows.
However, every Getzen I ever played, whether pro or student line, was a solid horn. Same with Yamaha, play a base 2310 flugel as my one and only, and it was marketed as a student horn. I bought it, played it, and in over 12 years have never felt the need to play another.
I have been through probably 120 trumpets and cornets, for a sure thing the 3 I listed above are your best bets.
I have never even seen a B&S, so know nothing about them. They may be great or they may be junk, just have nothing as a point of reference about them. _________________ Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2627
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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I got a silver plated Besson 1000 for under $150 on Ebay that plays really nice. I had tried one at a local music store and liked it and kept an eye out on Ebay. Supposedly all the Bessons are decent but the 1000 is the only one I have personal experience with. Supposedly a student beater but I wouldn't have any problem playing a gig with it. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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epoustoufle Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015 Posts: 234 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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In my humble opinion... you won't be able to tell the difference between a $100 trumpet and a $3000 trumpet. Get something shiny that looks good on stage and spend the left over money finding a mouthpiece that you can live with.
From what I read, trombonists play with a lot more volume of air (less resistance) whereas you are going to find the mouthpiece excruciatingly tiny and resistant. I would put 90% of your attention here - maybe something in the Schilke 20 range - rather than the horn. Forget notes above the staff, you'll go crazy and that's specialist territory. Plus noone but trumpeters care |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7771 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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(Well, I happen to play with 3 trombonists who are outstanding musicians... I also used to play a lot of trombone, baritone and tuba on a daily basis.)
Are you looking at new trumpets? At this point, probably any pro model that's in your price range as a new horn would do.
Used? I'll always recommend a Bach 180/37 ML. Silver plated. (And I don't play one...) You'll get a lot of crap around here about consistency, quality, and other junk you'd hear from someone recommending a car, pizza joint, beer, etc. Fact is, if you have one, bought it right, then decide you'd rather get a baritone (excuse me- euphonium) or something else, you're old lady dumps you, you cna't pay the rent, need money for that red head next to you at the bar, etc., you'll be able to unload (resell) the Bach a lot easier and faster than anything else. If someone disagrees, make sure you contract them to purchase your Kanstul/Getzen/wtf ever since they recommended it. I'd sign on for your Bach, bet the others won't... Good luck. |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Why would you invest in an instrument based on how fast you could turn it around in an emergency? That’s just bizarre. I would recommend an Olds Ambassodor or almost any Yamaha built in the last 20 years. If you’re looking for something more high end you could go B&S but there’s a lot at that price point. _________________ Kevin |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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There’s a Besson 800 in the Marketplace... looks a good bet. _________________ Kevin |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Wow, the variety of responses is ... dizzying. About the only thing stated I'd agree with is to devote a lot more care to mouthpiece choice than you'd expect. The smaller size makes it more critical to get a good fit, etc.
I don't have a cheap Bb to sell, and lots of us around here have multiple Bb's. This should tell the OP that it is not at all easy to find a Bb to love! I would encourage the OP to seriously consider cornet, and to exhaust the reasons why he couldn't gig on cornet anywhere he's thinking of using a trumpet. It's easy to find a cornet to love! Cheap, even. Just as easy to play above the staff, easier to execute technical passages.
The only thing a cornet won't do as well as a trumpet is commercial type playing, or covering the lead chair. Or if you need to blend/ keep up with a section of trumpets. In which case a Bach or clone is indicated, most of the time. |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7771 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:37 am Post subject: |
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kevin_soda wrote: | Why would you invest in an instrument based on how fast you could turn it around in an emergency? That’s just bizarre. I would recommend an Olds Ambassodor or almost any Yamaha built in the last 20 years. If you’re looking for something more high end you could go B&S but there’s a lot at that price point. | Well, I was assuming that the stats on a 180/37 as per popularity among playing pros pretty much speak for themselves without having to rearticulate them in the thread. The reason for going with the "easy to unload" angle is that if anyone has ever taught or played among hundreds, if not thousands of players with varying proficiencies that "had to have" a pro model trumpet, the vast majority of those instruments are never used professionally and eventually the majority of these "players" move on, as in "putting the horn down for good".
Of course it's always fun to spend someone else's money. |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2177 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:22 am Post subject: |
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The B&S Challenger horns are good horns. However, I don't know what they are going for used, so it's hard for me to say if it's a good bang-for-the-buck.
A variation on the B&S Challenger is the Sonare 800. That's essentially a B&S Challenger II with a Blackburn leadpipe. They are no longer being made. That is a candidate for good bang-for-the-buck professional level horn. |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Swartz wrote: | kevin_soda wrote: | Why would you invest in an instrument based on how fast you could turn it around in an emergency? That’s just bizarre. I would recommend an Olds Ambassodor or almost any Yamaha built in the last 20 years. If you’re looking for something more high end you could go B&S but there’s a lot at that price point. | Well, I was assuming that the stats on a 180/37 as per popularity among playing pros pretty much speak for themselves without having to rearticulate them in the thread. The reason for going with the "easy to unload" angle is that if anyone has ever taught or played among hundreds, if not thousands of players with varying proficiencies that "had to have" a pro model trumpet, the vast majority of those instruments are never used professionally and eventually the majority of these "players" move on, as in "putting the horn down for good".
Of course it's always fun to spend someone else's money. |
I hear you making some pretty strong assumptions that the OP won't be successful in their endeavor so they should just buy something marketable so they won't have trouble selling it when they eventually give up. I'm disappointed that this thread hasn't been more supportive.
In my experience with doubling on trombone (since trumpet is my primary instrument) using a mouthpiece that's on the larger side all around can be beneficial but the most important thing seems to be just being comfortable changing gears and not overblowing on either horn. Playing with a neutral embouchure helps. The more time I spend on trombone at any given time, the longer it takes for me to put my trumpet hat back on but it's nothing long tones can't fix.
I also think it's hard to be too selective when you're unfamiliar with the instrument in general. There will be a learning curve regardless of which horn you end up with. _________________ Kevin |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7771 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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kevin_soda wrote: | Craig Swartz wrote: | kevin_soda wrote: | Why would you invest in an instrument based on how fast you could turn it around in an emergency? That’s just bizarre. I would recommend an Olds Ambassodor or almost any Yamaha built in the last 20 years. If you’re looking for something more high end you could go B&S but there’s a lot at that price point. | Well, I was assuming that the stats on a 180/37 as per popularity among playing pros pretty much speak for themselves without having to rearticulate them in the thread. The reason for going with the "easy to unload" angle is that if anyone has ever taught or played among hundreds, if not thousands of players with varying proficiencies that "had to have" a pro model trumpet, the vast majority of those instruments are never used professionally and eventually the majority of these "players" move on, as in "putting the horn down for good".
Of course it's always fun to spend someone else's money. |
I hear you making some pretty strong assumptions that the OP won't be successful in their endeavor so they should just buy something marketable so they won't have trouble selling it when they eventually give up. I'm disappointed that this thread hasn't been more supportive.
In my experience with doubling on trombone (since trumpet is my primary instrument) using a mouthpiece that's on the larger side all around can be beneficial but the most important thing seems to be just being comfortable changing gears and not overblowing on either horn. Playing with a neutral embouchure helps. The more time I spend on trombone at any given time, the longer it takes for me to put my trumpet hat back on but it's nothing long tones can't fix.
I also think it's hard to be too selective when you're unfamiliar with the instrument in general. There will be a learning curve regardless of which horn you end up with. | You're really trying to tie my statements to this individual, obviously, you are trying to single out statements I've made. Clearly my comments concerning dropping out/moving on are general and directed at the entire trumpet, and actually, instrumental music "world", from 8 yr olds to very mature adults. If you have some stats that show that the majority of people starting out on any musical instrument actually are still playing after 3 years, post and document them.
I did quite a bit of playing on trombone, tuba, horn, as well as woodwinds over the past 45 years or so. I always found that playing the larger instruments took on an entirely different action in both oral cavity and how one blows at it. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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In terms of "biggest bang for the buck" it would be hard to beat a vintage Olds Ambassador as long as it's in good condition. They are comparatively inexpensive and back in the day (certainly pre-1965) Olds had only one standard of quality for every horn regardless of model: High. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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neobri New Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 9
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for the recommendations!
A few quick answers to some of the questions brought up above:
*I am looking used, as I don't need to buy new.
*I'm not sure I want a large-bore horn or not. I know how it all correlates on trombone, but still a bit unsure on trumpet.
*As for a mouthpiece, I'm playing something similar to a Bach 1C, but a bit shallower. Seems fine so far.
Maybe a bit more backstory would help. I'm formerly a trombonist with one of the DC Military bands. I have played trumpet before, too, just not professionally. When things are working, I can play reliably up to around a high C-E, and sometimes up to a double C. So I understand my mechanics reasonably well and know how to work on that to make things stronger, more reliable, and more consistent.
Someone said above that the amount of air a low brass player uses is typically much greater, and that is true. That's one of the big adjustments I'm working on.
And I don't think the thread has been particularly unsupportive - but I also understand it's easy to make assumptions because it could be a total beginner on the other end of the line. Rest assured that I know what I know and am endeavoring to learn what I don't. So - back to horns...
The suggestions above are many and varied. I'm borrowing a late 80s 37 at the moment - and it feels very good and solid. I'm surprised at how smooth and dark it is. I thought I wanted something like a 72, but this 37 has started to change my mind. The reason I am strongly considering a B&S is that they're supposed to be highly faithful clones, just assembled better, and so ostensibly more consistent.
I do like Bach trombones, when they're good.
Thanks again for all of the comments and suggestions - I do appreciate each one of you spending your time to chime in and help educate me.
PS - I own two cornets already - so I don't need another one! |
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