Too physicaly demanding for barely anything in return

[Tendermeat]

I'm a softmore in highschool and have been playing trumpet for about 4 years. Two of my biggest problems of playing trumpet have always been endurance and range. I have looked at tons of posts and other forums and even master classes. I think the fact that I have a downstream embouchure and a horn angle of like 20 degrees downwards is what is stopping me from progressing in range or stamina. I literally can only play a sometimes good a above the staff and anything above is hit or miss and airy. I always get an indentation on my lips after playing anything for even the smallest amount of time. I probably do use to much pressure especially towards the upper lip since I play downwards. After doing(or trying to do)range exercises for a long period of time I don't see a difference and honestly I think my range just gets worse. I don't overdo it and I really cant cuz I already have crap endurance. One thing is that for a few weeks I have been playing on a shilke 15b and it feels really big on me, like I just cant get a grip on any high notes without an excessive use of pressure. The mouthpiece I played before that was a bach 3c and it also feels big on me. I have already tried a marcinkewicz 1.5 e9.1 and it is a little shallow for me. Whether or not mouthpieces will do anything for I have no idea.

Next year our senior trumpet is leaving and I will be put on lead. I just don't know what to do, I feel like I'm hopeless and wont improve range. If I had the choice to choose to have amazing flexibility or amazing range I sure as hell would pick range. Also when people say just play the music and don't focus on the notes, how is it gonna be when I literally cant hit them. Anyways enough spewing.

My question is, does anyone have any advice on what I can do for bad register?

[kehaulani]

I had a hard time reading your post, (maybe more paragraphs? ), but I didn't see what your experience is with a good instructor. Is there one?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Tendermeat]

I do have a private teacher but it’s on and off because of financial reasons. When I do get with him he is a fantastic music teacher and of course focuses primarily on the music and exercises. The only problem is he’s not the person to instruct embochures and what not.

And sorry for the messy post, it’s my first time posting here and I can’t write anything for the life of me.

[VintageHorns]

Personally I feel like some mouthpieces are too big for me and my range suffers, obviously you should try out some smaller mouthpieces at a store to see how they feel and purchase a used one of the model. But also don't give up hope! There are tons of people with bad embouchure, mouthpiece positioning, or other physicality issues. But it is their perseverance that allows them to play as good as they do. It seems like you've already pointed out an area of concern, the large amount of pressure on your lips. A good plan would be to try playing with more support and compression to allow for less pressure, etc, etc. Try making good practice schedules, take appropriate rest and don't bang out your chops. Developing chops for high range can definitely be helped by developing chops in the middle and low register. Books like the Arban's can also help for a very good price! SMART practice and dedication will get you all that you need.

[Robert P]

[Lionel]

[rothman]

[HERMOKIWI]

4 years is not a long time to be playing trumpet so don't be too hard on yourself.

Endurance is a matter of muscle strength and efficiency. You can develop muscle strength through exercises such as the pencil exercise and also by just playing more (without hurting yourself).

That being said, efficiency is a critical part of the formula for increasing endurance. There are ways to play that quickly wear you out no matter how much muscle strength you have (too much pressure, playing loud all the time, poor embouchure formation, etc.).

Your downstream playing doesn't necessarily limit you. You just need help in developing more muscle strength and developing efficiency in your playing so that you put your muscle strength to its most efficient use in terms of effort vs. result. The right teacher can help you in both respects.

Just understand that there are no miracles in trumpet playing. It can take a long time to get to where you want to be. The important thing for you for now is to somehow be able to verify that you're on the right path, the path that will eventually get you the results you want. That can be very difficult because you rely on your teacher, you don't have independent knowledge and, if your teacher is wrong then your problems and development will be unnecessarily extended. So, finding the right teacher is critical.

Certainly one step in this process is to talk to your teacher about your concerns and ask the teacher how he/she intends to help you overcome your problems and what progress you can reasonably expect. Ultimately, though, the proof is in the performance: If you're doing everything your teacher is telling you to do and you're not making progress you have to consider the possibility that the teacher has misdiagnosed you or simply does not have an adequate solution for you, in which case you'll need to find a different teacher.

For most students the problems you're describing are not significantly related to the mouthpiece or the horn itself. They are physiological and technique issues.
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HERMOKIWI

[Tendermeat]

Thanks y'all for the replys

[zaferis]

What Hermokiwi wrote!

There is no quick solution, and self-instruction, self-analysis is most often incorrect.. your teacher may be giving you exaclty what you need, though by not having regular instruction/contact you are slowing the process.
It is a process, which takes time, lots of time. In which progress is not always measurable, often feeling like things happen in "plateaus" not a straight line growth.

I have a sense that your mouthpiece is too big, but that's only based on what you wrote and the mouthpieces you mentioned. IMO Schilke mouthpieces, becasue of the shape of the rim, can promote (or not punish) too much pressure. The "soft" rim allows you to pull on the trumpet and squeeze out the notes - works for the short term and up to a point = your top end will be limitted along with your endurance.

Where you've ONLY been playing for 4 years, First of all, that's not long-you're doing well... though, it wouldn't surprise me that this mouthpiece size neghborhood is holding you back a little..

Without working with you directly, it's nearly impossible to do more than to guess. But, I do know for sure that very few of my students know how to describe or diagnose their own challenges accurately-this is why we ALL continue to study with someone. "I feel like I'm doing this, what am I actually doing?"
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Adjunct Professor
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[deleted_user_680e93b]

[kehaulani]

I'm just thinking out loud and I value the posters and their input, but I wonder if all this second-hand internet advice, in this case, isn't well intentioned advice misplaced.

It seems to me, and I don't necessarily believe that "get a private instructor" is always the right advice, in this case it seems to me that the answer isn't in fact "get a private instructor".

There are just some things that are better observed first hand.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[RandyTX]

I agree with Kehaulani's comments above. Written descriptions of sound issues aren't always very informative, though some like to pretend they can diagnose them anyway.

That said, I think there's also a problem of motivation that we often dance around. There is no 'instant feedback' or 'quick learning curve' with music in general and the trumpet in particular. If you get frustrated in just a matter of years with progress rates, you're really not going to like figuring out it's a lifetime struggle, requiring daily attention and devotion.

You don't get good at it quickly, or magically, or by buying a new trumpet, or a new mouthpiece. There is no "Make me a Star in 21 Days" book that is anything other than a joke. It's a brutal path, and you have to do it because you can't imagine not doing it. This why you see so many instruments for sale every year.

[Billy B]

Do you practice every day?

For how long each day?
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Bill Bergren

[cheiden]

If work with your current teacher isn't giving you any confidence in the areas of range and endurance, and if you don't feel like you're making any progress, then you should consider trying a different teacher. A good teacher should be able to create and show you how to approach your daily routine so that it produces progress.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Brad361]

[rufflicks]

The difficulty here is not being able to see and hear what you are doing. The advice will be general at best. Some might help, some not. You need to develop mechanics that help you play into the upper register and these mechanics might not take hold and show their benefits for several months. Growth can be slow and seldom is there a miracle exercise or mouthpiece that increases range by a 5th over night or within a week. I think that equipment does make a difference but without developing the proper approach it is much less effective. You will have the same problems on a “commercial” mouthpiece as you will an “orchestral” mouthpiece. In my opinion the most pronounced benefit of the use of these “commercial” mouthpieces is obtaining the appropriate sound. Having the mouthpiece work well for you is certainly important but to think immediate benefits in register ease are going to happen is just not how all this works.

I have an adult student that has been playing a long time. He slowly developed bad habits and needed help. I changed the way he is playing. This took time to correct but the fruits of a very slow and focused practice have now become apparent. He did not play above a C in the staff for about 2 months. He had to learn to play correctly and activate correct mechanics with a good relaxed sound. It is around 4 months now and he is playing up to a relaxed E above high C with a good full sound.

No matter what you are playing; the exercise, study, routine, whatever it is you play you must play with a good tone. If your sound is not full centered and relaxed you are most likely doing something wrong. Being honest about the sound you are getting and ensuring it is a good sound is one of the most important tells of how we are playing. You must demand excellence from your approach and determine if this is working from the sound you are producing. You should not be contorting, undulating, jerking, pressing or pulling. Your approach should strive to remain relax in your upper body; arms chest and throat. Your core must activate and provide the support necessary for the notes and volume you are playing. This is your air support mechanism.

Air support is the most confusing component of how we play. Teachers say take a big breath and blow hard. Use more air is a very common saying. The reality is it is the quality and focus of air support that creates things like tone, flexibility, endurance and range. The best way I can describe how to activate this type of support is to cough. Cough like you mean it, like you need to get something out of your throat. This motion activates the same mechanism in your midsection that you use to support your playing. It is a conceptual poop up!

The next piece of this puzzle is controlling the air in our oral cavity or our mouth and throat. First lets examine the throat. Many players do not keep their throat open as the ascend. They bear down in the mid section to offer greater air support but they also close their throat in a similar manner to grunting. Step up to a wall brace yourself as if you are going to move this wall with you hands. (similar to a push up) Take a breath and move that wall; grunt while doing it. I mean step up and MOVE THE WALL SOLDIER!!! . What just happened in your throat? Most folks will close their throat as they exert energy with their arms against the wall. This is why it is imperative to keep our arms relaxed. It is a natural tendency to close our throat as we exert energy with our arms and upper body. (Sit ups)

I believe it is extremely important to keep the upper body relaxed and our throat open. This allows the least resistance of our air to flow out of our body and reach the mouth. Now what is happening in the mouth. There is debate here and I will state what I, and this is me, what I am experiencing. I believe the tongue along with jaw controls a great deal of our ability to play different pitches and registers. Air is a factor and directing air across or through our lips is key. I think of these changes in or mouth as vocalizations. The classic way to describe this is by using syllables like Toe for low notes and Yee for high notes. These syllables are typically described to focus on what the tongue is doing. Most folks fail to consider the effect they have on the jaw.

To understand the influence of the jaw bending notes is a very fine way to start to grasp this motion. Play a 1st space F hear that pitch in your head. Now play a 2nd line G and bend the pitch down to match that of the 1st line F without using the valves. This note will not want to speak well. It is up to you to create this pitch with the aid of your oral cavity. As you bend the G down pay attention to the motion that takes place. This is a big clue as to how our oral cavity works. If you do a search on trumpet note bending you will find information on this topic.

Next is focusing in on what our tongue is doing in relation to range. I recommend the Earl D Irons 27 groups of exercises. There will be those that recommend the Schlossberg trumpet studies some will recommend Bai Lin. I think the Irons book lays out a very good progressive group of studies and they are explained well. I have had personal success as well as students that have made gains from these studies. I do not offer this advice to diminish the benefits of other methods. I also do not wish to engage in debate over my recommendation. This is a solid book offering an excellent process that if done diligently and with correct approach will provide results.

Lip flexibility studies help us develop the mechanics we use to ascend and descend. They are played without the assistance of an attack or the use of valves. This means that to change pitch we must do something that creates the pitch we are trying to play. This is where I think vocalizations. I think of singing these notes and the changes in my tongue and jaw position start to happen in a more music oriented manner. Thinking musically through a vocal approach keeps me from over thinking mechanics. This how I think and it goes hand in hand with having your sound determine if you are doing things correctly.

Flexibility studies, Scale Studies, Arpeggio Studies, Interval Studies and Chord Studies all done throughout the a full register are key to understanding how to play in all registers and will help you expand your range. This is a balanced trumpet range diet. As some will point out Schlossberg is set up this way. I separate my food groups a bit more and think of them a bit differently. There is much more to playing music such as etudes, solos, excerpts transcriptions and other technical studies. These need to be part of your diet as well. This thing called trumpet playing is not a small task. You cannot disregard some aspects to only focus on one. This is not the way it works. Music is like life, it must have balance or you will miss out on many important and enjoyable moments.

I have a YouTube channel full of tips on a variety of topics. Here is a link to the Trumpet Range Video Tips. I think it is best to understand what I have written in this reply before you simply dive into my videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q74MMY-fiY4&list=PLjtQbOLXI0BB_2bn5GjxlWCYsEM8DDVTH

Best, Jon


kehaulani I hope my paragraphs are bite sized enough. LOL
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Remember this is supposed to be fun.

[Tendermeat]

Thank you all again for the comments.

First of all I have no desire to quit trumpet nor do I have a desire to get away from music. Band is the one thing I love doing the most and nothing beats a good sounding brass section. As for my practice, I practice just about everyday and for at least 1 hour. I've been told quality practice is better than quantitative practice so I am working on fixing up a better daily routine(if anyone also has any tips on that It would be greatly appreciated). Thank you Krell I will be checking out the Bill Adams method.

Secondly I believe I didn't describe my private teacher that well. He is a trumpet player and he DOes know stuff about embouchure development and he is also a downstream player like me. What I meant to say is he's not the type of guy to explain all trumpet physics and why blah blah blah doesn't work. He does give me advice on what I should work on like sometimes I get an air leak when playing so that's one thing to work on or not tensing the throat up as tension kills sound. As kehaulani said, some things people cant solve for you only you can experiment or stick with what you got.

Now the subject that I put up for this post was "Too physically demanding for barely anything in return". Meaning I literally put in a lot of effort to play trumpet and the sound isn't up to par with the effort. There is this great youtube channel called rufftips and in one of his videos "Hi kids Efficiency, Range and Endurance" he says that if you are putting in a lot of effort and getting a low result you are probably being less efficient.

I've heard many things like trumpet should be effortless or you are doing it wrong. I know that tightness in the throat/tension kills sound. I know that a weak breath is bad for your sound and taking a deep open breath is much more efficient. Another video with jim manley and the airmen of note trumpets, jim talks about deep breaths and relaxing when playing. Jim is one hell of a player and plays triple c's like there nothing. I really have no idea how its possible to play so relaxed and play stuff like a double c as if it was a low c.

Last thing, if anyone has had experience with wedge mouthpieces please share.

Edit: lol hi jon thank you for the response, its funny how I was thinking about you and then you actually respond. I will take everything into consideration. You are literally the perfect person to explain everything.

[Robert P]

[Brad361]