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mjfrocker74
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Joined: 30 Apr 2018
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:45 pm Post subject: Help Identify Old Bundy H&A Selmer Trumpet |
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| Please help! I just acquired an old Deluxe Bundy H&A Selmer trumpet (bach name is absent) According to the serial numer guides, it says the year is 1906 or 1907, but in my research the history states differently. Serial is 5596. [/img] |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I think you will have difficulty coming up with an accurate date for your Bundy. They don't really line up with any serial number lists, Selmer or otherwise that are published. Selmer USA did not keep any records for these horns.
Bundy student horns began production in the the early 40's. Given the low serial number, and lack of any "Bach" references, it is probably pretty early. I'd simply go with early to mid-40's and go with that. I doubt you'll be able to pinpoint it any further than that.
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VetPsychWars
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | I think you will have difficulty coming up with an accurate date for your Bundy. They don't really line up with any serial number lists, Selmer or otherwise that are published. Selmer USA did not keep any records for these horns.
Bundy student horns began production in the the early 40's. Given the low serial number, and lack of any "Bach" references, it is probably pretty early. I'd simply go with early to mid-40's and go with that. I doubt you'll be able to pinpoint it any further than that. |
Darn it, Finn! Not a student horn! That concept did not exist then! Bundy cost less than French Selmer but not out of line with some American brands.
Post pictures. The earliest Bundy horns were obvious stencils, some from Buescher, some from Conn. It will be fun trying to determine who made it.
Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:45 am Post subject: |
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The only Bundy trumpets I have encountered from before WWII were pea-shooters. Photos would be interesting. I suspect, given that Bundy followed the Selmer practice at the time of buying not building their product, that there are several serial number sequences in the 1940s. The wrap and elements of construction will probably be the best indicators of age for such a horn.
And while I shouldn't jump in on this, I will anyway: student horns did indeed exist by the time George Bundy put his name on a budget line, aimed at the emergent school music market. HN White renamed his low-cost "Imperial" (that he started building when B&F horns became unavailable due to WWI) "King Junior", and marketed it specifically to students in 1920. He followed-up with the American Standard "Student Prince" later in the decade. Frank Holton bought the former Couturier facility in LaPorte from Lyon & Healy in 1928 to make "Collegiate", another line named specifically to target students. We can debate Pan-American, Elkhart and Indiana, not to mention Reynolds Ohio Band Instruments, though their marketing certainly seems student oriented, but via White and Holton at a minimum, by 1940, the student market was well known.
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Ron Berndt
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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VetPsychWars
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, lower priced instruments that played just as well at a lower price point, but a raised nose, a sniff, and "student instrument" as "this thing is crap" is what I'm talking about.
These companies didn't know how to make lower quality instruments, just instruments with fewer embellishments that cost less.
In any event, in 1941, the Bundy was intended as a quality instrument!
This is a 1941 Bundy trumpet, obviously OEM by Buescher. It is by no means garbage. All it lacks is a third-slide adjustment.
Buescher's equivalent trumpet at that time, the Aristocrat.
You'll note the Bundy cost $90 in gold lacquer while the Buescher cost $95. I guess that difference is the cost of the third slide adjustment?
I saw a long/thin Bundy once but I have a Buescher long/thin trumpet, so I'm good.
Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Bundy student horns began production in the the early 40's. Given the low serial number, and lack of any "Bach" references, it is probably pretty early. I'd simply go with early to mid-40's and go with that. I doubt you'll be able to pinpoint it any further than that. |
| VetPsychWars wrote: | Darn it, Finn! Not a student horn! That concept did not exist then! Bundy cost less than French Selmer but not out of line with some American brands.
Post pictures. The earliest Bundy horns were obvious stencils, some from Buescher, some from Conn. It will be fun trying to determine who made it. |
Sorry, you're right - not a "student line" horn as we know now, though later Bundy's most certainly were by the late 60's and 70's.
Pictures would be great, because it could be rather interesting. Bundy's from several decades - much less interesting - though solid horns if in decent shape (they rarely are at this point).
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| VetPsychWars wrote: | In any event, in 1941, the Bundy was intended as a quality instrument!
You'll note the Bundy cost $90 in gold lacquer while the Buescher cost $95. I guess that difference is the cost of the third slide adjustment?
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No argument that George Bundy's quality ethic was manifested in the Bundy line early on - just as for the Selmer label, he bought good quality horns to stencil.
Those two trumpets, however, are completely different instruments varying in wrap height, bell brace type & placement, length of receiver, length of leadpipe, first valve slide construction, coupling across the tuning slide, and most noticeably, the Aristocrat being more of a balanced placement of the valve block in the wrap.
The minimal price difference may be attributable to Buescher being owned by then by a low-line company, as its up-scale brand. Still, it is the one of the two that features the more balanced construction and the half-reversed first valve slide which would support a throw there as well as the one it alone features under third. The Aristocrat is built with these premium features that Bundy horns simply were not - because they are not generally perceived as "needed" by people just starting out (a position I don't agree with, but acknowledge).
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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boog
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Joined: 04 Jun 2014
Posts: 247
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all this information. I have an Early Bundy, Serial No. 4600, and I have never run into this much info about it before. On the other hand, I have never asked!
This horn was missing a few parts when I got it. Finger hook was off, and a brace was missing. I put a pinky ring on it (I prefer this), and built a couple of matching braces out of brass rod. It was sort of a basket case, but not many dents/pecks.
It sounds really good to me, and plays about as well as my Strad (3 years old). Actually, I prefer it over the Strad for sound and ease of playing.
The poster who said that early Bundy trumpets were stencils was probably spot on. This horn I have was obviously made by the same maker as my Selmer 24B from 1956. The ferrules are similar and water keys are "round handle" like the 24B. It is also identical to the Selmer "balanced model", (I believe it was the 19b?) in the wrap. I would guess that it was built by Courtois...
It is a small bore, and measures a tad less than .449 with my cheap digital caliper.
A really quality trumpet, and other than the lack of a 3rd slide adjuster ring and a first slide saddle, is pro quality. I have been looking for years for one used so I could get the original braces, etc. but they are scarce. I saw one on ebay lately that was touted as being NOS, but it has the "U" shaped braces, and they say it was built in the late 40's.
I rescued this one from a high school band storage closet, and swapped them an Ambassador for it that was in playing condition. I think I got the best end of the deal (even though I have 3 playable Ambassadors!).
Again, thanks for the info about this instrument. I am going to bookmark this!
Cheers, Dave |
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VetPsychWars
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
The minimal price difference may be attributable to Buescher being owned by then by a low-line company, as its up-scale brand. Still, it is the one of the two that features the more balanced construction and the half-reversed first valve slide which would support a throw there as well as the one it alone features under third. The Aristocrat is built with these premium features that Bundy horns simply were not - because they are not generally perceived as "needed" by people just starting out (a position I don't agree with, but acknowledge). |
A few misconceptions above, which I will address.
1. In 1941, the majority stockholder of Buescher were also the majority stockholder of Conn. Up to you whether you consider Conn a low-line company. 
2. The Aristocrat as pictured is not "balanced" per se although that picture makes it appear so; most Buescher horns regardless of wrap appear to balance at the third valve.
As for the reversed first valve slide, you will note all of the valve slides are reversed, and all Buescher instruments with slides were made this way in the 30s through the mid-50s. The fact that there is no intonation aid on the first valve slide is because there is no need for it. Most instruments in this period were made to a different intonation model than instruments made today... it was thought more desireable to slot wider and use the lips to adjust the pitch than to slot more narrowly and adjust slides.
If you look at that Bundy above, the low D is only about ten cents off... easily lipped in tune. Most people (like me) who learned to play on a Buescher don't bother using the slide on that note. The D-flat (or C-sharp, if you prefer) is is more like 25 cents off, yike, so you bet you need it when you need it! There are no stops on Buescher horns, so I had Charlie Melk add them to my Lightweight 400s before I sold them.
Once in high school my band director wanted to demonstrate how certain notes on the trumpet tended flat or sharp, so he got a bunch of us in front of a Strobotuner and play a certain note. Frustrated him with my grandfather's Buescher 400 and your common 70s Bach 7C. Hit every note in the center every time.
What is truly interesting is the amount of machine work that went into making that Aristocrat. Buescher must've charged Bundy a hefty fee for making his horn for him!
Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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