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stevericks Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:23 am Post subject: Besson Brevette 10-10 |
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Would appreciate any info and rough estimate about an old Besson Brevete 10-10 that a friend is offering to sell me. On the bell it has the name, and says “made in England”, but also shows “London, Paris, New York” written in a row. Also says “50 medals of honor.” It uses the old Olds side style (like on Supers) water key on the main tuning slide. There are triggers on the third And the first slides. The second slide is forward facing (unlike back facing on modern horns). There is a fairly large star up the bell, above the writing and most stenciling. There is some type emblem below the star. 10-10 is also on the bell. I do not see a serial number. With the lacquer off you can see see the seam of the one piece bell. Almost all lacquer is missing. Water key corks need replacing, otherwise it plays fine. No dents or dings. Mouthpipe looks to be very, very slightly bent down (not really noticeable) from leadpipe.
Any idea of when this was made?
Was this a pro horn?
Is this considered a valuable Besson (know Besson has a long complicated history of various makers)?
Can someone give me a very rough idea of what price to offer for horn, provided it is worth collecting?
Any information you can share would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I have a pictures of it but not sure how to post on this site. _________________ Steve
Olds, Kanstul, Bach |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:07 am Post subject: |
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In 1948, the English Besson company (as distinct from the more famous Fontaine-Besson firm in France) was acquired by Boosey & Hawkes, which set about repurposing the rather stagnant Besson name in the UK as a better student line to compete with the American giant CG Conn, which was making inroads there. The 10-10 models are among the many new products introduced as part of this, and were built throughout the 50s and 60s.
They are on par with Olds Ambassador, Holton Collegiate and Martin Indiana horns of the same time frame - and price accordingly. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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stevericks Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Thanks. Wow. I’m surprised to hear that they were student line in leu of the triggers on the horn and Super water key. You have me wondering if I want to pursue a purchase. Was hoping it might be older than your dates (my guess had been 40s). and more in the pro line. Thanks for the info.
Steve _________________ Steve
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robbrand Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2014 Posts: 120 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:45 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | In 1948, the English Besson company (as distinct from the more famous Fontaine-Besson firm in France) was acquired by Boosey & Hawkes, which set about repurposing the rather stagnant Besson name in the UK as a better student line to compete with the American giant CG Conn, which was making inroads there. The 10-10 models are among the many new products introduced as part of this, and were built throughout the 50s and 60s.
They are on par with Olds Ambassador, Holton Collegiate and Martin Indiana horns of the same time frame - and price accordingly. |
No, that is not correct. The Besson 10-10 was a fully professional model, one of the best Besson/B&H trumpets ever made. Altogether on a different level to the Ambassador, Collegiate or Indiana. Read about your horn here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090117185114/http://www.horn-u-copia.net/books/Besson%201958.pdf _________________ B&S Challenger 1 3137
Courtois 113ML
B&H Imperial Flugel
Besson USA 620 cornet |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I suppose I will agree that the 1958 catalog (now removed from horn-u-copia I see) deemed them pro horns. Agreeing with that marketing (and we all remember the "Ambassadors are produced with the same tools to the same specifications" spiel from Olds for student horns) however, is a matter of opinion I do not share. Compared to a Paris Besson, their tone is lifeless and their response a bit brick-like (just like the bulk of Conn's brasses at the time - yes, excluding the 38B/36B/8B)
I will grant you that Byron Autrey did procure 10-10 and 2-20 bells to extend his study of Besson bell making. I am not aware of anyone, him included, deciding to use that information to imitate those in any way.
eBay pricing for these models has been, as I indicated, inline with Indiana and Ambassador (the Collegiates can be had a tad cheaper but only due to supply) _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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robbrand Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2014 Posts: 120 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:31 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | I suppose I will agree that the 1958 catalog (now removed from horn-u-copia I see) deemed them pro horns. Agreeing with that marketing (and we all remember the "Ambassadors are produced with the same tools to the same specifications" spiel from Olds for student horns) however, is a matter of opinion I do not share. Compared to a Paris Besson, their tone is lifeless and their response a bit brick-like (just like the bulk of Conn's brasses at the time - yes, excluding the 38B/36B/8B)
I will grant you that Byron Autrey did procure 10-10 and 2-20 bells to extend his study of Besson bell making. I am not aware of anyone, him included, deciding to use that information to imitate those in any way.
eBay pricing for these models has been, as I indicated, inline with Indiana and Ambassador (the Collegiates can be had a tad cheaper but only due to supply) |
You must have played many of those instruments because you seem to have a deep knowledge of their qualities! I’ve only played two B&H horns - the one a Regent which was a pretty good student/intermediate one, and the other a 1950s vintage Imperial (which happens to be identical to the Besson 10-10, and was B&H’s top pro horn at the time, and which I still own. Its not bad for a 70-year instrument! You’re right, they don’t sell for anything near what they should be worth. I’ll have one of them any day rather than an Ambassador or Collegiate.) _________________ B&S Challenger 1 3137
Courtois 113ML
B&H Imperial Flugel
Besson USA 620 cornet |
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Gabrieli Regular Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 65 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I was bought a new Besson 10 10 by my parents ca. 1965. They were considered professional models and were I think well made but the medium bore was somewhat restricting compared to american instruments. Do not forget that Britisch orchestras were often playing smaller bore tenor trombones, G bass trombone and smallish f tuba until around 1960. In that context they were good professional instruments. when I started studying in 1968 I changed to an Olds Super, which I found much superior. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Gabrieli wrote: | I was bought a new Besson 10 10 by my parents ca. 1965. They were considered professional models and were I think well made but the medium bore was somewhat restricting compared to american instruments. |
It's possible you found the 10-10 restricting - I haven't played mine for a while - but they were ML .460 bore - essentially the same as Bach (.459) and Benge (.460). I don't remember if ML Yamahas are .459 or .460 _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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All other considerations aside, there is always one over-riding rule in instruments: if it works for you, it doesn't matter what it is, or its reputation, or its price. Everyone is different and when you find what works, there is nothing better. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Flinders, Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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The serial no on my 10-10 is very lightly stamped on the underside of the bell throat opposite the valve block, mine is 302xxx, rescued from a dumpster at a school very beaten up, bell folded back on itself half way down the flair and tail crushed numerous other dents.
On effecting repairs getting into playing condition has one of the easiest high register of all my horns. Currently waiting for me to make a set of valve guides in brass, robbed the plastic ones to fix a friends Besson New Creation.
Regards, Stuart. |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 684 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:16 am Post subject: |
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The 10-10 I've played was a top professional horn, very well made, great attention to detail and it really had a lovely sound. Comparing it to an Olds Ambassador and other student trumpets, that is an insult.
The intermediate 8-10 I've played was not as good, but it was still a really good trumpet.
The student 2-20s I've played were all better than any Olds Ambassador I've played, but here we talk about preferences. I like horns with open slotting and the Besson bell with its open bell throat requires a bit more of work with intonation, but oh what a sound it can make! A relief among all those other student trumpets with their dead, boring tone.
I can't have had the best Besson trumpets ever made and only dog Olds trumpets. That catalogue is right on the spot. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:04 am Post subject: |
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So, is this a trumpet, or a cornet? I've never played a 10-10 trumpet, but the 10-10 cornets are very nice instruments. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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stevericks Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Dale,
Not sure. Looks like a trumped. If you will pm me your email, I’ll send you a picture of it. _________________ Steve
Olds, Kanstul, Bach |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:40 am Post subject: |
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stevericks wrote: | Dale,
Not sure. Looks like a trumped. If you will pm me your email, I’ll send you a picture of it. |
Steve, I'm sure if you think it's a trumpet, then it's a trumpet. I was just wondering, since the post didn't reference which it was. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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