ML to XL bore acclimation tips?

[random_abstract]

I’ve been an ML player forever (20+ years), but the last few months I’ve been playing on an XL bore Schilke. I hesitated for awhile about making the switch, but I finally got to spend some time with one, and I really love the depth of sound I’m able to get now, when everything locks in. It comes and goes though. I’m finding that I have to learn a whole new kind of muscle memory to get to the sound I want.

Any tips on acclimating from seasoned players who have made the transition to a L or XL bore instrument? I’ve searched the forums but haven’t found a whole lot. I’m interested in specific centering exercises, typical hurdles to overcome, mpc throat/back bore recommendations, stuff like that.

So far upward slurs seem to be the most difficult thing, especially near the bottom of the staff, interestingly enough.

Thanks!

[HERMOKIWI]

I can only speak to my own experience: I make no physical adjustments whatsoever regardless of bore size and have no difficulty with any of them. My horns range from .438 to .470 in bore size.

It's a persistent rumor that playing a large bore horn compared to a medium large or medium bore is a Herculean task requiring "so much more air to fill up the horn." It's a complete myth.

First, the interior volume of a tube .470" in diameter x 58" long (the approximate length of tubing in a Bb trumpet) is only about 1.32 cubic inches more than the volume of a tube .438" in diameter x 58" long. There's not much air in 1.32 cubic inches. Also, the "bore size" is measured only at the second valve slide. That could be the only place a so called large bore is bigger than a smaller bore. There is no consistency. Some "smaller bore" trumpets could have more internal volume than some "larger bore" trumpets.

Second, and more importantly, you don't have to "fill up the horn with air" because the horn is ALREADY filled up with air when you pick it up. You're just moving air through the horn.

I don't know any reason why changing bore sizes would require a physical change in your approach.
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HERMOKIWI

[cheiden]

I used to intermittently play a 0.468" bore Holton MF and it used to be a strain. I think the biggest problem for me is that I would always try to make it feel the same as my ML, and that was taxing. When I learned to back off and just let it feel different then it became much easier. This adjustment took me quite a while.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[random_abstract]

HERMOKIWI, I think you’re arguing with somebody else... I didn’t say anything about “filling the horn up with air”. There is definitely a difference in terms of resonance, and the size of the vibrating air column. Otherwise why not make .460 the international standard for trumpet design?

1.32 cubic inches seems like a lot to me when we’re talking trumpet. Try adding that volume to your mouthpiece cup, for example, and see if you notice a difference...?

[HERMOKIWI]

[Andy Del]

I'm with HERMOKIWI. You don't need to worry about the size of the trumpet, but the feedback and feeling of resistance you get.

My C trumpet (Thein MH 4 valve jobbie) feels huge, gives a huge sound, won't quit on you or get brash unless you want. It's a medium bore instrument.

The feeling is so misleading a young friend warmed up on it as a routine for a few weeks in order to 'get his air going'. I said, in the best Sgt. Schultz tradition 'Nuzzing'...

The perceived differences in response, etc. just mea one needs to take stock and be on task rather than rely on muscle memory. Think of the notes to be played and blow for those. A common mistake would be to relax TOO much for a big horn in the low register. Maybe feel you are centred and ready to move on up high, and the low notes will slot better...

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[HERMOKIWI]

I just want to add one other thing: There's a pre-conceived notion that large bore horns are "more free blowing" than ML horns. However, that's really not necessarily the case. Remember, the bore size is designated by the inside diameter of the second valve slide. That diameter would typically be .468 on a large bore horn and .460 on a medium large bore horn (some manufacturers vary slightly from this). That being said, there are no specific requirements regarding the rest of the horn. The ML horn could be bigger than the LB horn everywhere except the second valve slide.

I'm not certain what the "advantage" of a LB horn is over an ML horn. Maybe you can play louder before the sound breaks up? Maybe you get a darker sound? I don't know that any of that is true, at least on any consistent basis.

My own feeling is that LB horns are made primarily because people buy them. Some people think they "need" a LB horn. Other people are "afraid" of a LB horn because they worry they can't "handle" a LB horn.

The amount of resistance is very important to how the player perceives the horn to play. Different horns do resist differently. I mostly play an Adams A8 .470 bore for combo/jazz and it definitely feels like it has less resistance than my Burbank Benge 3X .460 bore. To me, the lower resistance of the Adams A8 actually makes it more difficult to play than the Burbank Benge 3X. However, I use the same mouthpiece on both horns and take the exact same approach and things seem to work out satisfactorily. The two horns get different sounds, but that's the whole idea of having two such different horns.

I think a slightly different approach is needed on flugelhorn compared to trumpet but from trumpet to trumpet I think you stay with a consistent approach regardless of the model, bore size, etc. It will work. You just have to get used to the different feeling each horn gives in terms of resistance and feedback.
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HERMOKIWI

[theslawdawg]

Don’t forget the bell size. That makes a huge difference, too.
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My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs

[jazzjezz]

[Brad361]

[iiipopes]

Most of the resistance is in the mouthpiece with the cup and throat characteristics. I have played everything from a small bore French to my ML bore Super 20 to a Besson 220 with a .468 bore, with no real adjustments necessary, since I play a variety of 3C-style mouthpieces with the same throat ("loose" 27), with different backbores to match the particular trumpet.
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King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet

[EdMann]

I'll tell you, the biggest blow I've had were two horns of completely different stripes, my old ST301 MF Horn at .468, and my 28A Connstellation cornet at .438, and arguably, the Conn was more difficult to last on. The leadpipe/bore/bell combination is what really did me in, not just one factor (and my habitual use of larger mpcs). Of the two, I miss the Conn for its monstrous sound. The bore is the least of it.

ed

[kalijah]

jazzjezz wrote:

[pepperdean]

I wonder if you have some other issue like a mouthpiece mismatch or something. I used to play a regular rotation of Benge 5X, C trumpet, D trumpet, and sometimes picc. When Ren Schilke built an X3 for me, nothing changed except, for commercial work, the pockets felt bigger in the upper register. I kept with the theme and also played a Yamaha L bore and a Wild Thing.

To me, the large bores just feel easier to play.

Alan

[matthes93401]

Addressing the original question, try a commercial mouthpiece. For my Schilke X4B, I use a 5 Warburton backbore.

I'd like to hear from a professional how they approach the different equipment though.

[Seymor B Fudd]

[Lionel]

For years I loved my Kanstull .463 B flat. A very versatile horn. But I played it so much and for so long that it needed a major overhaul. So ai bought a cheap Chinese horn in M/L bore. Bought it with the idea of using it 97-year-oldonly during the time my main ax was in the shop.

However after a week of blowing the M/L I found it so much eaaier to play accurately that I never had the work done on my Kanstul!

While it is technically possible to get a bigger sound on most X/L bore horns ("X/L" meaning > .462) the loss of accuracy wasn't an acceptable trade off.

So ultimately I found the M/L the horn best able to blow lead on. This because I wasn't wasting energy trying to fight the loss of control the X/L bore created.

So? You might consider keeping your old horn around for other tasks.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).

[brassmusician]

I agree with Kalijah on this. It comes down to the amount of acoustic impedance provided by the horn-mouthpiece setup. This is what we feel as resistance and it depends on all elements of the setup, the bore size is just one. Less acoustic impedance requires faster air to get the lips vibrating at the same rate for a note. A horn-mouthpiece setup can be too open for a player, in that not enough resistance is supplied to make playing efficient. In that case the players lips are required to provide the necessary extra resistance and the lips give out......sooner or later depending on how strong the player is. This is why players of very open or free blowing horns (remember this is just a way of saying low acoustic impedance) often balance their horn with a tighter mouthpiece. A tighter mouthpiece can mean, a narrower throat, a shallower cup, a tighter backbore and even a more grippy rim. Of course each players experience is going to be a little different according to the efficiency of their embouchure, their blowing capacity etc, and the demands of their gigs.
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Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL

[jazzjezz]

[brassmusician]

I think there is a confusion of terminology around net air flow here. We all agree air must pass through the lips to make a sound. In the Smith article they make the air exit before it enters the trumpet, that is all. The air that passes the lip must escape the system somehow, or it backs up and stops. Put a sock in your trumpet and see what happens.
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Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL