Xeno v. B&S Challenger v. Vintage One

lincolnjazz · Regular Member Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 74 Location: NC

I am in the market for a new horn to replace my one year old Silver Flair, which I now feel limited on-it seems too thin in its sound and is not as resonant as I would like. The top three on my list are the Xeno, Challenger and Vintage One. I would be using the horn in orchestra and symphonic band in college and (hopefully) jazz band this spring at my high school. If anyone has advice concerning these instruments and their merits, your help would be much appreciated.

trumpetmike · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:02 am Post subject:

The simple advice on this would be to try them all and see which one you prefer.
Preferably trying each instrument out in the context in which you are going to be playing.

For what it is worth (after all, choosing an instrument is a personal thing, so take all advice given with a pinch of salt!) I would probably go for the Xeno or the Vintage One. I have tried both and these seemed to suit my playing very well.

I found the Conn to be slightly more enjoyable to play.

You may find that the feel is similar to your Silver Flair (an instrument that is very popular on TH - check out some of the relevant threads - I love mine - use it in conjunction with a Yamaha 6335). I think that the reason I may have preferred the Vintage One is that I loved the feel of playing my Silver Flair and this was a very familiar, comfortable instrument.

Both the Vintage One and the Xeno are on my wish list, the V1 is slightly higher up, but as both of them are quite a few down (well, I'm happy with my Bb trumpets at the moment) this is not really a relevant statistic.

In general, when choosing a new instrument, go for the one that works for you - what works for one player will not work for everybody.

Martin · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:30 am Post subject:

Basically, trumpetmike said it all.

But since I am one of those who appreciate any and all feedback on equipment, here are my experiences.

Xeno: I had a very nice Yamaha 6335HII which I tried against a Xeno 8335 - frankly, I couldn´t detect any difference between the two at all. Yamaha makes great horns, and these two were no exception.

V1: I tried one recently and was not impressed at all. It was the gold-brass bell/reverse leadpipe version, and it sounded, well, dull. The guy in the shop (a pro player himself) said that the V1 was selling quite well, but that this particular example has been sitting around for months, so I´d guess it was a dog. The two Bachs I tried the same day blew it out of the window.

Challenger: The best horns for the money, IMHO - here in Europe, anyway. The Challenger I is an impressive copy of the Strad 37 at a ridiculous price,while the Challenger II line-up has many more models. All I have played so far were excellent in all aspects. Definitely try one of these!

That said, you can´t just compare "Xeno", "V1" and "Challenger" - there are three Xeno models in either lacquer or silver plate, and many more V1 and Challenger set-ups including reverse leadpipes, light, heavy or sterling silver bells, gold plating etc.

You really have to find out for yourself. I´m sure there´s a V1 model I´d be thrilled to have, but the one I tried wasn´t for me...
_________________
All the best

Martin
_____________________________________________________________________
"I have found that it is enough when a single note is beautifully played." - Arvo Pärt

romey1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2003 Posts: 797

All good choices,

You may want to throw a ML Bach 37 into the mix as well.

Good luck!

romey

trumpetmike · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:03 am Post subject:

It was only a matter of time before someone said to try a Bach, well done Romey - we can always rely upon you.

farbewerk · Regular Member Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 26

A little background first. I purchased a regular V1 when they first came out. 1B-SP. Standard (46) leadpipe. Played great. Got stolen.

Fast forward 1 year to the other day. I tried 3 newer V1s. The standard 1B-SP wasn't anything like my original. The horn I found closest to my original was the Rose brass with silver plate, standard leadpipe. In an interesting side note, somebody had been saying to watch mouthpiece fit in V1s in an earlier post (see Conn V1 "feel" under topics); both my original and the more recent 1B-SPs have a very loose fit with standard mouthpieces and yes, you can get what sounds like a loose valve cap when in actuality it's your mouthpiece. I've got a little wear on the mouthpiece stem but it shouldn't be that loose. The other models (Rose brass, silver and rose brass lacquer) were fine. Weird.

I still want a V1. I think you just need to try several as they might not be as consistent as they're cracked up to be.

[ This Message was edited by: farbewerk on 2003-12-01 08:21 ]

NTlead · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:22 am Post subject:

Check out the B+S Challenger II Elaboration series. It visually wins out of all of those, and it plays very well too. It's $1575 from tulsa band.

_Daff · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431

I second the motion for the B+S Elaboration. Horsed around with it at our small local trumpetfest last month. It stood way out of the crowd. Impressive horn.

But, I must also defer to trumpetmike's comment . . . it's whatever turns YOUR crank.

Have fun.

jophst · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:42 am Post subject:

I would like to share my experiences with the above mentioned options:

Yamaha Xeno:

I played and used to own the 8335G Bb in lacquer. This horn played absolutely amazing from top to bottom. The Xeno's are the type of horns you would want to audition with as you are just very consistent on them as opposed to the Bach's. However the Bach's have that extra character to the sound that the Yamaha's don't (yet anyway). I had added some CCaps to it and it sounded great in a symphonic setting and blended well with the other Bach's. It is also great for an Orchestral sound ... huge and powerful .. and heavy enough for the sound not to break up very easily (unless you get really obnoxious). Again though, the sound is nice and dark, clear, powerful .... just generic. I have also played a 8335RGS and it played quite nicely and was very freeblowing. In my opinion, this horn would be suitable for the symphonic band and Jazz ... not so much Orchestra though.

Conn Vintage One:

I owned one for a few days before selling it, but it was lavquer and had a rose bell. This horn had a much different blow than I was used to. It took very little effort to get a very big sound out. However, in my opinion, it lacked meat and presence ... maybe a little too focused it you will. It would be a great lead horn or jazz horn though. I doubt it would blend well with the Yamaha's or Bach's (again my opinion).

B&S Challenger:

I had the privilegge of owning one of these. It was a 3137/2GB .. whatever that means ... but it was a terrific copy of the Bach 37 but had a Gold Brass bell and was a little heavier than a standard Bach Strad. This horn played extremely nice from top to bottom. The sound was beautiful, gorgeous, full, pure, dark yet brilliant. It had every color to the sound that everyone would like in my opinion. Most people think that the Gold Brass bell makes a horn dark but too dark to where the sound becomes dull. This horn was not the case. Mine was silver also. I ONLY sold it because like the schmuck that I am, I can not seem to get over the fact of a horn not saying Bach Stradivarius on it. The person I sold it too basically told me that "What were you thinking by selling this horn?" This horn may not be the last horn you ever buy, but for the price and quality, you CAN'T go wrong! It would be perfect for any setting in my opinion, band, orchestra, and even jazz. The mouthpiece selection has a lot to do with the sound you get out of the horn as well. I miss it a lot!!

Bach Stradivarius:

Well, I'll share my personal opinion but there are 100's of 1000s already posted .. from good to bad to terrible to obscene. I myself personally love my Bach Strad Bb's and C. I play on a lightweight strad (body) with a heavy 37 (37H) bell which plays extremely nicely. It responds well but the sound it nice and full and simply will not break up. Intonation is great as well. I will admit that the Xeno plays a little easier and more consistent than the Bach. I do not mind having to work just a little harder on the Bach in order to achieve the sound I want. I also own a Bach Strad in standard weight model 37 which plays even better than the other ... and I will likely be owning it for a very long time. I picked this one out of 30-40 other Strads (over a week).

The 37 is often referred to as Bach's all around horn and I myself would not have any problem using it in Band, Jazz, and Orchestral setting. If I back off my sound enough it blends great in a quintet also.

The model 43 has a more focused sound and would be great for band and jazz .. bot not so much Orchestra since the sound doesn't spread out enough and may not fill up a big concert hall.

Anyone will agree with the following statement:

Try out and play as MANY horns as possible. The Xeno's are very consistent from horn to horn. The B&S has very good quality and I would suspect that not many Challenger dogs exist. I am not sure about the Conn V1's but they are of high quality as well and probably do not have quality control issues. They have many models though so I suggest you try out each model to find the one you like the best. The Bach's however may take you a while to find a good one. The Brand Brand new ones aren't too bad from what I hear but the sort of new ones are and you truly need to try a BUNCH out to find a really great one.

If it were me, I would go to a store that carries most if not all of these lines. Go in and fine the best Xeno you can and then do the same with the Bach's and have the store set them aside. If the store has the V1's, try out a few and set one of those aside also. Then come back the next day or another day and play them again and see which one you like the best ... eliminate one if you have 3 to choose from. Then come in a final day if necessary and choose your horn. The idea is to see which horn you are most consistent with from day to day and also produces the sound you want from day to day.

The bottom line is that Xeno's are a great buy, but a "great" Strad is very hard to beat.
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

trumpetmike · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:27 pm Post subject:

Nice to see that people take notice of the original post.
Someone lists three instruments and (so far) two people have posted that he should actually be trying something else entirely.

jophst · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:56 pm Post subject:

Yes I tried my best but I thought I should mention the Bach Strad regardless of the quality-control issues.

Hope know one opens up the can of other manufacturers .... Schilke, Callet, Callichio, Holton, Getzen, Monette, Taylor ...

Close it Close it!!!!!!
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

_dcstep · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:07 pm Post subject:

...and Stomvi, Kanstul, Couesnon, Selmer-Paris, King, Getzen, Ze.. maybe I should stop.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest