Bach 10 1/2C Mouthpiece

ohiohorn · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Bach 10 1/2C Mouthpiece

I've searched this forum and found nothing about a Bach 10 1/2C range/size of mouthpiece. I'm 58 and trying to regain some of my endurance and range from my high school/college days. I've been using the Claude Gordon material daily for the past three months in order to accomplish this. My question is . . . at a certain point will my current mouthpiece hold me back from developing my endurance/range? All of the discussions I see are about lead mouthpieces and/or Bach 1C vs. Bach 1 1/2 C, neither of which would seem to help the endurance or range. Your comments are welcome!!!

Richard A · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Bach 10 1/2C Mouthpiece

bw3 · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:18 am Post subject:

Back when I was in high school, we all had 10 1/2 C's in our jazz group and they were the standard cheater mouthpieces we used. They helped somewhat with range but I always felt that the tone suffered. (We all wanted to have a range like Maynard)

Now, I most frequently use mouthpieces more in the Bach 7C and 3C sizes. The range seems to just come with more practice but I feel that my tone is much better using the 3C or 7C type mouthpieces.

richardwy · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:39 am Post subject:

Mouthpiece Rant by Jens Lindemann

Really helped me bunches!
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1972 Selmer Radial

ohiohorn · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:07 am Post subject:

Thanks for the link to the "Rant". My concern is whether the 10-1/2C is too small of a cup to permit me to develop further? What would be the advantages of exploring a 5C, 3C, etc.? Thanks.

leadtpt1955 · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:56 am Post subject:

richardwy · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:57 am Post subject:

One of the best players I've ever known and played with used a 10.5C. Only piece he ever used. Sounded great! No pinched, tiny, nasal thing at all about his sound.

If we practice "enough" and "smartly," then something akin to progress happens over time. My guesstimate is 6 to 9 months. That's how I measure things. It takes that long for me to see things begin to change for the better big time. Okay, maybe only a few months. But I'm not 2 week wonder on any of this horn stuff.

I get acclimated to a mouthpiece. Except for my coming up on 30 year old Schilke 14, the few other mouthpieces I own are in the 3'ish diameter range. For me, it may just boil down to "pick a reasonable number and learn to play trumpet." Jens' essay helped me "feel okay" about downsizing. It's like, well if he says it's okay, then it's okay.

It's easy for pros to say "don't listen to what others say, listen to what comes out of the bell." And they're right. It's just not as cut a dried in real life for hobby/hacks. That is, until it becomes that easy. If that makes sense?

I lose a tad off the top end with my 3B that I don't lose with a 3C or Vacchiano 4C. But what I lose is meaningless in my case. I never see stuff up there. And the sound I get throughout the register on the 3B really trips my trigger and says to me, "Now, that's what we're talking about!"

I've never used anything smaller than a 4C. If all I had was a 10.5C, I've no doubt that over time, I could get a very nice sound out of it. I like the room a 3'ish diameter gives me. I've found I can push it and it won't break on me. No clue as to why. It works. So I don't piddle much. A tad, yes. I'm guilty of that. But I guess I've found what suits me.

Sorry for the too many words.
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1972 Selmer Radial

bw3 · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:39 am Post subject:

Dale Proctor · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject:

Fleebat · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject:

John,

Really interesting to run into this post. I've recently moved to a Reeves 42S for commercial work, coming from a 43S. Looking for something with a similar rim size that gave me the sound I want for combo-type stuff, I tried a 10.5c that had been lying around in the ol' mouthpiece "tub" (yikes... there's a bunch of scrap metal in there!). Don't have access to the internal Kanstul Comparator - at least I don't think I do - but to my chops the 10.5c feels very, very close to the 42. Great response and a big, FAT sound. Who knew?

This 10.5c, btw, is a newer, post-big-letters sample.

Rusty Russell

Ralph · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject:

I have an old V. Bach Corp 10 1/2C that I sent to Mark Curry to be copied. Turns out the rim diameter is close to a 1C! I have two other 10 1/2C's and they are all a little different, but none as large as the first one. I think of all the Bach mouthpiecies, the 10 1/2C has the most variablilty. The one you're playing may not be as small as you think.

Fleebat · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject:

Hey, Ralph.

Measuring with my calipers, the newer 10.5c is MUCH smaller than any of my 1.5c pieces (I have six, all early Elkharts). I know it's hard to measure exactly due to the inner rim curve, but it's WAY smaller. Very close to the Reeves 42 by measurement, as well as just feel.

Another test I've used is to dip the rims in water, upside down, and blot a soft pad of drawing paper with them, making rings on the paper. While not real precise, any major difference between two rims will show up on the paper.

I love older Bach pieces, but if consistency is what you're after, the newer pieces (since Bach began using a CNC machine) are much more consistent. I'm not real concerned with consistency. If I find something I like, I really couldn't care less if the ones made right before and after are wildly different. I just need one of anything I like.

RR

Ralph · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject:

I agree with eveything you said. The 10 1/2C that I have is a real odd ball. That's why I sent it to Curry and asked for a copy. He scanned it and told me it measured the same as a 1C if measured 32/1000ths from the rim edge. It measured closer to a 3C further down into the cup. The other 10 1/2Cs that I have are much smaller.
I also like the early Bachs. I have an Elkhart 1 1/4C screw rim that's wonderful.

plp · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject:

The best answer is to just try a 10.5 C and see if it works for you. I play a variety of mouthpieces for different effects, and it is all about how it sounds, and how easy it is for you to accomplish your goal.

One of the better mouthpieces I used to use was an old Mt. Vernon 12C, make the mistake of loaning it out, along with a grand worth of horns, cases, and mouthpieces, to the wrong person. After the 30 day play test was over, tried his cell, had been disconnected. Tried his home phone, same thing.

Called his employer and found out he had been laid off the Friday before I loaned out the horns on Saturday, should've wondered why he didn't want me to come by his house.....OK, rant over. It happens.

Anyhoo, the 12C was about the same diameter as the 10.5 C, but had a slightly deeper cup and larger backbore. A Warburton 7D with a 8 backbore comes pretty close in feel.

slide911 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 27 May 2007 Posts: 894

I'm a comeback player a well. I've tried all sorts of mouthpieces. The one thing that helped my playing the most, and in fact over night, dramatically improved my playing, was switching to a 10 1/2 CW mouthpiece. It was like a miracle.

Clifford Brown played on what is the equivalent of the 10 1/2 C.

Since switching to the 10 1/2, I've improve no matter what the mouthpiece is. I often switch back to the 3C or 1C and i can play much better on those mouthpieces now than before I made the switch, but I always go back to the 10 1/2 CW.
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1934 King Silvertone Cornet
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Oncewasaplayer · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 974

Like many of you, I'm a comeback player and am thrilled with my 10-1/2C mp. For me, it's comfortable, seems to make my higher range doable and the sound (to my ear and an instructor's) sounds like a good trumpet sound. What's not to like?

I was just in NYC and picked up a Mt Vernon 10-1/2C mp at Jon Baltimore's shop:

http://www.jonbaltimoremusic.com/index.php

BTW, Jon was quite friendly. The shop's up a few flights of stairs and has instruments everywhere. Even has a store cat that lies on the counters. He brought out a couple trays of vintage mps, then added a few vintage horns to the counter to play. Also suggested coming back to the shop in the late afternoon when local players come in to hang out before the night gigs. All fun for a guy from the desert.

(Now I need to get the mp replated and am thinking about gold.)

BTW, the Mt Vernon 10-1/2C seems to have a slightly brighter sound than the Vincent Bach 10-1/2C. The slotting above high C seems different but I'm not sure quite how yet. From what I read on TH, the backbore is different.

Ok, got a mp, gotta horn...gotta go practice.
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chapahi · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Bach 10 1/2C Mouthpiece

Yamahaguy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992

Fleebat · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:33 am Post subject:

Yamahaguy,

Interesting that in quoting slide, you ignored these two points from the same post:

"The one thing that helped my playing the most, and in fact over night, dramatically improved my playing, was switching to a 10 1/2 CW mouthpiece. It was like a miracle."

and...

"Since switching to the 10 1/2, ..."

Actually, the latter is from the same sentence as the quote you pulled. (Are you sure you're not a presidential candidate?)

No offense, but this gets so tedious; where, ANYWHERE in this thread, has anyone suggested it's "the arrows" AS OPPOSED to "the archer?" To continue your analogy, the very best archer, while his long years of practice and his laser focus on the task will render better results with lame weopons than the most geared-up slacker, will certainly TRY to find the very best-fitting bow, the straightest, sharpest and most solid arrows to fill his quiver.

Why can't we ever see a discussion of gear here without at least a few posts dissing the idea that gear has an impact? With the exception of the rare, newbie post from a kid who wants to know "what mouthpiece will give me a killer high range," I've never seen anyone so much as suggest that a mouthpiece, horn or other piece of equipment could be a viable substitute for dedication and diligence in the practice room.

Since picking up the horn again after two decades when I didn't even have a trumpet in the house, I put in a minimum of two hours a day. 8 days out of 10, it's 3 to 4 hours. I work very hard to succeed at this, and it pays off. This week I did two recording sessions and a butt-kicking live gig where most of the 10-piece band was comprised of full-time studio players. Somehow it's folly for me or other hard-working players to think about the gear we're using? Really? As I have progressed, occasional equipment changes have absolutely enhanced what I work on.

Sorry, your comment isn't really an agregious example of what I'm talking about, but it hit a nerve. NOBODY said anything like "now that I've switched to a 10.5c, I no longer have to practice." Nobody has hinted that any piece of gear will, by itself, make them play well.

I roll my eyes with special drama when I read a "gear doesn't matter" post from someone whose signature includes a long list of carefully-chosen and clearly coveted instruments and/or mouthpieces.

Practicing your butt off goes (or should go) without saying. It also only makes sense that one would make the most of that invested time by practicing and playing on gear that fits them and their style(s) best. That usually means some level of analysis and experimentation. No, gear is not the most important thing. But it matters.

RR