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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject: Video: Middle Aged Amatuer Lead Player w/Range but No Style |
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Here is an example of what I was talking about in the other thread. I know how this should sound. I know when to make notes short, when to back tongue, how hard to swing..........but I can’t seem to do it. My style is not right. I am performing this tune this weekend.
https://youtu.be/uQ7Fv9xAztk _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1472 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Video: Middle Aged Amatuer Lead Player w/Range but No S |
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INTJ wrote: | Here is an example of what I was talking about in the other thread. I know how this should sound. I know when to make notes short, when to back tongue, how hard to swing..........but I can’t seem to do it. My style is not right. I am performing this tune this weekend.
https://youtu.be/uQ7Fv9xAztk |
My pro buddy sometime tells me that sometimes I play in a way that is, sort of, fragmented; imagine walking along, suddenly stopping, and then walking again. Intermittent. Perhaps described as talking in very short phrases, making pauses, on /off. Instead of a "fluent" stream of words, long enough to be "emotionalized" - the opposite of droning.
The remedy I´m told is to concentrate on making longer musical lines, connecting the notes. Singing a song, or telling a story with a "drive" behind it, concentrating on the flow. Makes me think of a river, water streaming, eddies where the water sudddenly flows quicker, variations of speed/accentuation.
So I would say practice playing chorals, long tones, exaggerating the nuances (=if performed like that making the audience jump) - sing them first - then take more "swingy" phrases, always sing them at first, keeping up the flow! In normal speech the length of a phrase is about 3 seconds;
Now take as an example Ellingtons´ Solitude - simple melody but it has to convey a certain feeling; experiment with playing it the discontinual way, and then play the phrase in its full length "Iiiinn myyyy sooooliituuude", slowly slowly... (closing yours eyes might help!)!
Not that easy to demonstrate - this is what came to my mind.
You have such a nice sound - make it carry a message (like "I´m utterly mad"/I´m utterly scared/I´m utterly sad/I´m utterly alone - and so forth)!
I suspect many of us have a potential for improvement in this respect.. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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BGinNJ Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Mar 2010 Posts: 380
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:23 am Post subject: |
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It just sounds like you're playing random notes that don't lead into each other. That is, there's no sense of melody. |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:56 am Post subject: |
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I liked the first 15 seconds. I think if you'd looped back to your initial pattern and repeated/played around with the rhythm it would be really good. It may be that your range is a slight challenge for you, that you are wanting to go all out and make each solo a kind of conclusion. When I've been watching jazz players it seems like often there's an intro, then each player gets their 12 bars to noodle around, riffing off the main melody, and then they wrap it up together. |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:09 am Post subject: |
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I guess I guess I should clarify. The video is the ending of the tune, the final
shout section. It’s a piece by Cassio Vianna—who just accepted the Jazz Studies Prof position at PLU—called “Scrabble” and I am playing it about 40 bpm under tempo. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1472 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: |
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INTJ wrote: | I guess I guess I should clarify. The video is the ending of the tune, the final
shout section. It’s a piece by Cassio Vianna—who just accepted the Jazz Studies Prof position at PLU—called “Scrabble” and I am playing it about 40 bpm under tempo. |
Me being the stubborn type - so read my post dammit _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | INTJ wrote: | I guess I guess I should clarify. The video is the ending of the tune, the final
shout section. It’s a piece by Cassio Vianna—who just accepted the Jazz Studies Prof position at PLU—called “Scrabble” and I am playing it about 40 bpm under tempo. |
Me being the stubborn type - so read my post dammit |
What makes you think I didn’t? _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
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Harrelson 5mm MP |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: |
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This might have been the wrong way to do this. I know exactly how this excerpt should sound. I posted this link to show what I described in the other thread. This is how I wind up playing. ZERO issues with range as range extension lends itself well to a disciplined analytical approach. Jazz style does not seem respond as well to that analytical approach, which may well put it beyond me in the 1-2 hours a day I am willing to devote to trumpet.
Like I described in my other thread, I simply do not have jazz style internalized, even after years of studying with an excellent pro player/teacher. My style is mediocre and unless this new idea of singing jazz licks works, I am done....... _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Less studying; more listening. |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Do you ever play along with professional recordings? Do that. Get to the point where you can match, note for note, the style of the lead player. _________________ Please join me as well at:
https://trumpetboards.com |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:23 am Post subject: |
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INTJ wrote: | This might have been the wrong way to do this. I know exactly how this excerpt should sound. I posted this link to show what I described in the other thread. This is how I wind up playing. ZERO issues with range as range extension lends itself well to a disciplined analytical approach. Jazz style does not seem respond as well to that analytical approach, which may well put it beyond me in the 1-2 hours a day I am willing to devote to trumpet.
Like I described in my other thread, I simply do not have jazz style internalized, even after years of studying with an excellent pro player/teacher. My style is mediocre and unless this new idea of singing jazz licks works, I am done....... |
You have determined your limited options ...based on what people have posted in this thread?
It sounds to me that you have never been taught how to play swing time. People have told you to "listen to this and copy it," but that process only works for some players, and only to some degree. The swing time nuances that separate the pro from the amateur sometimes need to be taught. And they can be taught.
Jeff |
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drboogenbroom Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 697
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: |
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I would get jazz specific private lessons, and I would start here:
http://www.scottybarnhart.com/lessons.html
A legend of a player, and looking at the lesson descriptions, I would guess he could cater to your analytical side fairly well. If this doesn't float your boat or looks too expensive etc, there are a ton more. Just run a google search.
If this is something you want to do and you are stuck, get real help. You can learn to do this in 1-2 hrs a day, but not if you are flailing in the dark and consumed by doubt.
Kevin _________________ By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision.
Bruno Walter |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Less studying; more listening. |
_________________ Bill Bergren |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Video: Middle Aged Amatuer Lead Player w/Range but No S |
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INTJ wrote: | I know how this should sound. I know when to make notes short, when to back tongue, how hard to swing. |
Knowing when to do xyz isn't the same thing as knowing how it should sound. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Maybe you should look to play somewhere where you don't have to play lead. If you play in the section you will be forced to listen to how the other guys are playing. You might learn a lot that way. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm hearing a lot of problems just maintaining a consistent time structure totally independent of the issue of playing with correct jazz styling. Practicing with a metronome could help a lot in ingraining consistent time structure into your playing. That really has to come first before worrying about jazz styling because maintaining a consistent time structure is foundational to any type of styling.
Many times the player thinks they are maintaining a consistent time structure but playing back the recording shows otherwise. So, this is not necessarily a natural or inherent skill. Playing with a metronome is the most reliable way to train yourself to maintain consistent time. You build skills by starting with the most foundational and working up to the most specific as the foundational skills solidify. If I were you I wouldn't work on or even worry about jazz styling until I was rock solid in maintaining consistent time. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:17 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Less studying; more listening. |
Listening how and to what? Analytical listening or just let it play? Big bands or combos? I have being listening for years, but obviously not doing it the right way. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:18 am Post subject: |
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LaTrompeta wrote: | Do you ever play along with professional recordings? Do that. Get to the point where you can match, note for note, the style of the lead player. |
I have done that a fair amount. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:32 am Post subject: |
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[quote="trumpetteacher1"] INTJ wrote: | You have determined your limited options ...based on what people have posted in this thread? |
Not remotely.
Quote: | It sounds to me that you have never been taught how to play swing time. People have told you to "listen to this and copy it," but that process only works for some players, and only to some degree. The swing time nuances that separate the pro from the amateur sometimes need to be taught. And they can be taught.
Jeff |
I have been taught, but have not learned. I spent about six years with a 25 year pro jazz/lead player with a Masters in Jazz composition. He taught me the fundamentals: back tonguing, short vs fat, no space vs lots of space, tongue cutoffs, two-thirds/one-third for slower swing and shuffle,
60/40 for faster to just articulation for very fast, quarter notes are usually short and/or fat unless marked otherwise, etc. I took a couple lessons from a talented kid earlier this year and found I had learned none of that.
Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is insanity. Thus my efforts with the postings here. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
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Flip Oakes Flugel
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Nos Mo King Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 Posts: 438 Location: Cheyenne WY
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:33 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Jeff in that we can be taught how to swing, or play higher, etc....but if you have a belief that you can master the trumpet, and your (trumpet playing) happiness is conditional upon the myth that anyone could master it, then IMHO you are going to be miserable. Trumpet playing is hard enough without that saddle on your back.
Ask any professional ( whom you may believe is a master of this beast) if they are satisfied with their playing, and I can guarantee what the answer is going to be.
You have the rest of your life to get better... try to spend some time in your playing just enjoying the challenge.
All the best _________________ Russ Chapman
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