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Petey Regular Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 Posts: 29
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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tristanfrank wrote: | Keep an eye on CU Boulder. Ryan Gardner was just hired there as their new full time professor, and Justin Bartels is on faculty as well. |
Not a fan of either.. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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What makes you say that, Petey? Their credentials are impeccable. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Why in the world, given the present reality, would anyone ever consider graduate school in music? It was a reckless, irresponsible idea several years ago when I considered it--and the career prospects are 10x worse now than they were back then.
That was 2015, by the way. _________________ Please join me as well at:
https://trumpetboards.com |
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Petey Regular Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 Posts: 29
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | What makes you say that, Petey? Their credentials are impeccable. |
Stuff I've heard from folks. Everyone on that level has great credentials.
Aside from credentials it's all about personal experience. |
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Petey Regular Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 Posts: 29
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Petey wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | What makes you say that, Petey? Their credentials are impeccable. |
Stuff I've heard from folks. Everyone on that level has great credentials.
Aside from credentials it's all about personal experience. |
IMO credentials don't mean much.
You have to know their personality, if they are good for you. If you have chemistry etc. That's why I pay attention to what I hear rather than what's on paper..eg a person's credentials are not good enough.
Last edited by Petey on Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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andybharms Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 633 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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If you want to play in an orchestra, go to Rice or Colburn or Northwestern. Simple as that. Audition as many times as you need to. Don’t go to a school just because it’s the one you can get into. You’re just wasting your time and money. _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
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slipperyjoe Regular Member
Joined: 26 May 2020 Posts: 18
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Read this entire blog as well as Further Reading (scroll down on the right):
https://100rsns.blogspot.com
think about it for a few days and read it again.
I wish I had read something like this before enrolling in graduate school. I would have had a much happier life.
Unless it provides very specific training for a very specific, high-demand career, graduate school is a colossal waste of time. Do some actual research and don't take any advice / career guidance from prospective advisors or program coordinators who are complicit in the scam that is graduate school. |
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deleted_user_48e5f31 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:18 am Post subject: Re: $$$ |
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dfcoleman wrote: | Regardless of grad school chosen, don’t borrow money to attend. Find another way. |
Can that be done, these days?
I lived in a fishing cottage owned by my father-in-law, as well as having borrowed a VW Beetle klunker, had the G.I. Bill, a wife who worked part time, and I had a work-study grant, later a graduate assistanceship.
That was a hell of a mosaic of incomes, and that was at a state school with in-state tuition, but without my father-in-law's help, I don't think I could have finished school debt free.
Now my Doctorate, on the other hand, took ten years to pay off! _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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slipperyjoe Regular Member
Joined: 26 May 2020 Posts: 18
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Masters programs don't typically cover tuition or expenses. One strategy is to work where an employer provides tuition assistance and attend school part-time. I earned a free M.S. that way.
'Real' Ph.D. programs cover tuition and provide money for expenses via teaching or research assistantships. Since I lived in an area with a high cost of living (NYC), I also worked a separate part-time teaching job (albeit against university rules) and finished debt-free.
I attended a public university in both cases.
It can be done. That said, I wasted many years of my life and don't recommend this path. Graduate school is almost always a fool's errand. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:12 am Post subject: |
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slipperyjoe wrote: | I wasted many years of my life and don't recommend this path. Graduate school is almost always a fool's errand. |
Just to give an alternate view, I have worked as a full-time musician all my adult life. Schooling was a definite advantage. Sorry it didn't work out for you but it's hardly universal. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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slipperyjoe Regular Member
Joined: 26 May 2020 Posts: 18
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: |
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It's not a matter of what you can't do, but what you can do. Outlook on life.
Apply yourself, be creative, be flexible and, very important, be ready.
I learned to not let yourself say no but to let them say no.
But the largest thing is that I did my Doctoral work for me, not for anyone else. And since it was for me, my rewards were internal. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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It was a bad idea before the pandemic hit. Now look at things.
For goodness sake, don't go to graduate school in music. Your older, wiser self will be ever-grateful.
But if you choose to pursue it, only Rice or Colburn or Juilliard makes any sense for an aspiring orchestral musician. _________________ Please join me as well at:
https://trumpetboards.com |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 643 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Too many PhDs, too many professional masters' degrees, too many JDs and auxiliary law degrees, too many of most everything except - maybe - MDs. Which can cost >$100,000/year to attend. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:42 am Post subject: |
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LaTrompeta wrote: | It was a bad idea before the pandemic hit. Now look at things.
For goodness sake, don't go to graduate school in music. Your older, wiser self will be ever-grateful.
But if you choose to pursue it, only Rice or Colburn or Juilliard makes any sense for an aspiring orchestral musician. |
I know someone working on his 3rd graduate performance degree - who will likely pursue a career other than performance as he has a unique skill set and talent in a related, but not performing or teaching, field. That does not mean he is wasting his time though. Not only does it afford him the chance to become a better musician and technician, and exposure to performance opportunities that one has in school that, absent a performing career, do not happen in life after that, but it gives him the opportunity to expand his knowledge and critical thinking through other coursework and research. He is growing as a person, not just filling a check-box. Graduate school just for the piece of paper may not be worthwhile, but that does not mean the endeavor if utilized as the opportunity it truly is, should be considered likewise.
Its all in what you do with it.
And as far as schools for trumpet performance historically: you have to include Eastman and UNT. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Subtropical and Subpar wrote: |
Too many PhDs, too many professional masters' degrees, too many JDs and auxiliary law degrees, too many of most everything except - maybe - MDs. Which can cost >$100,000/year to attend. |
And you base that on what? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 643 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:22 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Subtropical and Subpar wrote: |
Too many PhDs, too many professional masters' degrees, too many JDs and auxiliary law degrees, too many of most everything except - maybe - MDs. Which can cost >$100,000/year to attend. |
And you base that on what? |
I don't want to derail the thread, but in brief:
I have (at least one) of those degrees, so I know that/those market(s) intimately from personal experience. As for the rest, there's a growing academic and general audience literature on the job woes of all of those cohorts, as well as some full-length books. Some issues started with the Great Recession, others have been around for at least the last generation.
I'd recommend, among others,
- The Graduate School Mess by Leonard Cassuto
- Failing Law Schools by Brian Tamanaha
- The Adjunct Underclass by Herb Childress
In addition to dozens of academic articles on SSRN, NBER, and other repositories, and general interest pieces in the nation's largest-circulation newspapers and magazines. For instance, there are no books on the overproduction of certain types of STEM PhDs so far as I am aware, but many articles on that phenomenon.
On the bright side, it's given me the time to get back into the wondrous world of the trumpet.
Tl;dr: LaTrompeta's observation that "only Rice or Colburn or Juilliard makes any sense" has corollaries in just about every corner and area of graduate education. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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astadler Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2014 Posts: 130 Location: Little Rock, AR
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:52 am Post subject: |
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My 2¢: I think the real question that should be asked instead of saying "grad school is useless" or "there are too many [insert degree here]" is why do you want to go to grad school? Are you going simply to increase your chances of getting a particular job, or are you going in pursuit of knowledge?
There are so many people who get a DMA or whatever degree because "that's the next step" rather than because they truly want to study music and broaden their horizons. In my experience, many of those tend to be the people who struggle with their music theory/musicology academics, but think that because they play their instrument "real good" that entitles them to a doctorate so they can go teach. I am a recent DMA grad, and I hope to one day get a job in higher ed, but that's not the sole reason I got the degree, and not the only thing I can do with the skills and knowledge I gained from my studies. Going to grad school just so that you can be qualified to teach in academia is a cycle that's not going to help anyone, but that doesn't mean that grad school is useless. |
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rmch Regular Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2012 Posts: 94
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Is there any teacher you want to study with? If so, go to the school they teach at. Is there any particular skill/repertoire/method you want to learn more about? Go study where that is taught. Your teacher can have a big impact on your experience, so make sure you consider them in the equation: does the teacher teach the things you need to learn/are interested in learning? Do you have/think you will be able to have a good working rapport with that teacher? _________________ 1919 King Liberty
1923 Conn 22B
1955 Selmer 24A (Balanced Action)
1981 LA Benge ML #3 bell
1938 Couesnon Flugel
1907 HN White Co. "King" Cornet
1977 Selmer Picc |
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