how can I tell if its a dog or not?

AeroStud1026 · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:49 pm Post subject:

When I go up to look for a new horn....and im looking into new horns....not used....how could I tell if the horn im playing is a dog or not....is it like...just by playing it u can tell.. or are there more obvoius things like say a slow valve..cuz I heard Bach has made some dogs in their time....but really who hasnt? well....I was wondering if I have any guidlines I could go by....thanks alot

btw I was using bach as a example....i gotta go try all the horns before I can make up my mind

oneeyedhobbit · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:36 pm Post subject:

You should be at a point where you are a mature enough musician to tell by feel and listening. In the case of dog vs. quality horn, the difference will be dramatic-there will also be subtler differences between "good" horns.

With all due respect, if, when playing, you can't perceive a noticeable difference between horns, you may not need a new one-unless you feel limited, or its in bad shape.

AeroStud1026 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:08 pm Post subject:

Yea.....I can tell the feel and tone and all cuz ive played other peoples horns before and some i really hated....I just really hate to screw up on something like this...and yea i do feel limited....on the one i play now thats part of the reason that I am getting a pro horn

lol dont get me wrong...I may ask newbie questions....but ive been a trumpet player for about 8 years but I havent really used horn wise anything other than my yammie or that conn i played for about a couple months...so really moving up to a pro horn is new for me

[ This Message was edited by: AeroStud1026 on 2003-12-03 16:11 ]

trumpetdiva1 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:40 pm Post subject:

Check out this link from the "Gearhead Consumer Report": http://www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/index.html#FAQ

Read these sections:
* How should I test a new trumpet?
* When I am testing a trumpet, what exactly am I testing it for?
* What pro quality B flat trumpet should I buy?

It contains some good advice. Good luck!

Janell Carter

trumpetmike · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:43 pm Post subject:

How to tell if it's a dog - does it Bach???

(woof, woof!)

Oh such wit (sorry folks - it's been a long day!).

trump_it · Veteran Member Joined: 16 Mar 2003 Posts: 319

Four legs and fur should be your first indication.

But seriously, you can tell by playing it. Sometimes, if it's really bad, you can tell by just looking at it. Messy soldering on a new horn is usually a pretty good indication that it's not a great horn. If the valves feel bad, don't let them fool you. I played a Yammie the other day with awful valves (most do), but it was an incredible horn. Good luck!
_________________
2003 All-State Musician

trump_it · Veteran Member Joined: 16 Mar 2003 Posts: 319

OH MAN! trumpetmike, you beat me to it. I hate those overlap posts. That Bach joke was only two-thrids of a pun. P-U.
_________________
2003 All-State Musician

trumpetdiva1 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:52 pm Post subject:

HorneyMikey · Veteran Member Joined: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 325

How can you tell it's a dog?

If it humps your leg, it's a dog........

Keep 'em coming, folks.

trumpetmike · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:01 pm Post subject:

If it looks like a dog and barks like a dog - it could be a cat in disguise

trumpetchops · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644

Bring someone with you that plays better than you. Play for them and have them play for you. Compare what you think.

If you can't get someone to go with you, bring a tuner or ask for one at the store.

I like a horn that will really opens up in the upper register and still plays down to low f sharp.
That along with playing in tune is about all you can ask for in a short tryout. At least it will not be a dog.

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetchops on 2003-12-03 17:06 ]

jhatpro · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:06 pm Post subject:

Usually, it's not hard to spot the dogs. They're hard to play and don't sound good.

The hard part is to seprate the great horns from those that are merely good.

I look for a horn that sounds full and rich in all registers and at ppp as well as fff. I also look for a horn that plays in tune with itself with relatively little help from slides.

Next, I consider how playable it is. That is, does it speak easily? Are the valves quick and smooth? Do all the other parts work flawlessly?

Finally, I evaluate it's build quality and appearance. Is it a Ford or a BMW? And do I really like the finish and accents?

The process I use for arriving at the best of the best is a little like the procedure an optometrist uses for fitting eyeglasses or contacts. You know, the "is this better, or is this better?" approach.

By comparing two horns and putting aside the one that you like least, you eventually should find the horn of your dreams -- or at least find the best of the group that may be available wherever you're play testing.

The hard part, of course, is comparing a horn you liked at Store X last week with one you like at Store Z this week.

Ah, so many horns and so little time!
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

trumpetdiva1 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:15 pm Post subject:

trumpetdiva1 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:15 pm Post subject:

Make sure that you take your horn with you for comparison. Try out as many as you can. Check out different brands and play several from the same brand. Check for response and resistance, too.

Janell Carter

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetdiva1 on 2003-12-03 17:22 ]

jophst · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:22 pm Post subject:

A couple pro trumpet players told me the following:

Play the B (A Concert) scale two octaves up and down. This is the worst scale on the Bb trumpet and reaks out of tune even on a good trumpet. A great trumpet may have this intonation under control though.

Also play the chromatic scale from low F# to high C and back down with no breaks. Concentrate on how the blow of the horn felt from bottom to top to bottom. Did it get stuffy anywhere? How was the timbre of sound? Did it sound consistent?

Bach's can be tricky because most "Bach's" have the "Bach" sound but not all play great of course. So, don't play a gorgeous middle C and shell out money for the horn right after ... what about the other notes??? .... and everything else??

When I was in high school and my parents bought be my first pro horn (Yamaha 6335S) ... it came down to this horn and Bach 43 ML in lacquer. The Bach had a slightly better tone but some heavy caps calmed down the standard weight Yamaha. They both played excellent and I couldn't decide. My parents of course were no help ..... "Chromatic what?!?!?!" The salesman had me play my All-State tryout music on both horns ... and some other Honor Band tryout music as well that I hadn't really prepared. Well, the Yamaha ate the Bach's lunch ... by a lot. I nailed it on the Yamaha everytime. Bach sounded good ... just wasn't consistent. The salesman new that the Yamaha was the horn for me but I still didn't yet. I of course went in the store to buy a Bach ... all my friends had Bach's ... all college players had Bach's ... who owned Yamaha's? My band director suggested Bach ... Bach Bach Bach Bach ... etc. My parents then chimed in with ... "The Silver one played mo better Josh .... everytime!" Salesman said, "Still not convinced?" ... so he pulled out some sightreading for me. Of course I had goofs and splee-yah's all over the place. But I sounded much clearer and more confident on the Yamaha ... so I told him ... "Put the Bach back on the shelf".

That's my first pro horn experience as I can remember it. That horn was perfect for me as I was a sophomore and was still developing and the horn wasn't too heavy for me like a Bach would have been. In my opinion, the horn only does 25% of the work ... the musician does the other 75% and fills in the gaps that the horn doesn't on its own. I come from a poor family so this purchase was a very big thing so I wanted it to be right. I played on a Bach TR300 all years prior to that one (a used one at that) ... gosh darn horrible horn!!! I somehow made All-State with it and everyone that sat near me just stared at it .... one asked when my main horn would get out of the shop? I told him .. "Uhhm, when I purchase one".

Best of luck in what you choose though!
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

trumpetdiva1 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:36 pm Post subject:

jophst · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:38 pm Post subject:

This was before the Xeno came out of course also.

It is ALL based on an individual's perception of sound. What do you want to sound like? Picture it. Hear it. Play the horn .... does that sound like it? No? Try another .... repeat ...
_________________
Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB

plankowner110 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620

Trumpetmike gets the "Joke of the Day" award. Good one! Any dog with a Bach like that must be a Boston Terrier.

_________________
plankowner110
Schilke B1/ Bach 3C
Yamaha 731 flugel/ Yam 14F4-GP

[ This Message was edited by: plankowner110 on 2003-12-03 17:49 ]

AeroStud1026 · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:50 pm Post subject:

Thanks alot everybody...great advice jim and thanks janell for the link to that site....its really opened my eyes....and jim the exact same thing about the Bachs u said....everything i hear is bach bach bach.....I asked him what he thought about the Yammie Xeno Special model.....he said Go to zapfs and try the bachs they have there...compare it to the xeno and buy what u feel is right.....but no doubt the guy wants me to buy a bach.....To tell ya the truth thats prolly the 1st instrument ill try out is a bach mainly becuz every1 around is soo obsessed with them...

The fear I have is that bach many people say are inconsistent..that bothers me cuz what if all the bachs that they have are dogs and i wouldnt even know it cuz i played all of them....but I SEROIUSLY DOUBT Zapfs doesnt have a great bach in stock so if i seriously want a bach im gonna hafta try all the bachs they have that pertains to the model i want ( ex. trying all the 180S-37's they have) cuz thats the model im looking into....then ill compare to the xeno and even V1 and see whats up...thanks guys i really appreciate it greatly

[ This Message was edited by: AeroStud1026 on 2003-12-03 17:51 ]

trumpetmike · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:08 pm Post subject:

Yay - Joke of the Day!!

Shame I never win anything due to my trumpet playing, oh well!

In all seriousness (yes, it can happen!), if you play it and it doesn't work for you - don't buy it.
One instrument cannot work for everybody (after all we are all different), what works for one will not work for another. This is very easily shown in Surrey Brass (the ensemble I play with). We all have our own instruments and sound very good on them (if I do say so myself!), if we change to using each others' it sounds very different, not nearly as good.
The quality of player hasn't changed, but the timbre of our playing has.

Go for whatever works, if you think it is a dog, don't use it - don't buy it!

It's all very well getting someone else to try it, but if it works for them and not for you, you could still end up with a dog for you!