Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:22 am Post subject: Re: The barrier between high Eb and high E
John Mohan wrote:
What many also describe as a "break" that occurs somewhere up high is actually just the place in your range where you are blowing as hard as you can and can't generate any more air pressure.
...The spot is related directly to the player's ability to generate air pressure
Have to disagree with you here John, based on my own experience. There could be more going on than just lack of air power.
My sticking point is consistent every time - but not insurmountable. Everything up to and including an Ab will come out without much problem, and will come out strong. From the A to the dub C is problematic. However, going from the G to the dub C is usually more successful/easier than getting the Bb and B, even if I get the dub C. As far as the A I've gotten to where I can basically fudge it by lipping a G sharp or using alternate fingerings, it doesn't often come out as a nicely clear, distinct chromatic note. I've got plenty of physical & blowing power. If it was just a matter of running out of steam for the A, then the dub C wouldn't be coming out. There's obviously some physics issue going on.
I can feel what happens - the tongue arch, teeth opening, pressure distribution between the lips, and tension in the lips have to be just so and *bing* the C pops out. I'll even overshoot and hit an occasional double D. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
It’s about coordination and technique, not power and strength.
I think it's about all of the above actually.
...
For reference, 24 KPa of air pressure is the amount of air pressure a trumpet player generates when he plays a High D at a volume of 112 dB according to the study.
All true but probably not what the OP -- a fairly green, HS player with a specific need within a specific time frame -- needs to be thinking about right now.
Let's get him experiencing those notes without trying to blow them into existence.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:08 am Post subject:
Hi Mike,
In regards to your most recent post, yes I do think we are for the most part, saying the same thing with different words.
Regarding Natalie, yes, she's phenomenal for her age. One thing to note which at least partially explains why she can play as high as she does (though perhaps not screamingly loud) on those YouTube videos with her and Adam Rapa: That same study I cited earlier tracked air pressure not only in different registers, but at different volume levels and way less pressure is required to play any particular note soft than that same note loud. For instance, while that orchestral player had to generate 24 Kilo-pascals of pressure to play a very loud High D, it only took about 7 Kilo-pascals to produced a soft High D.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: Re: The barrier between high Eb and high E
Robert P wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
What many also describe as a "break" that occurs somewhere up high is actually just the place in your range where you are blowing as hard as you can and can't generate any more air pressure.
...The spot is related directly to the player's ability to generate air pressure
Have to disagree with you here John, based on my own experience. There could be more going on than just lack of air power.
My sticking point is consistent every time - but not insurmountable. Everything up to and including an Ab will come out without much problem, and will come out strong. From the A to the dub C is problematic. However, going from the G to the dub C is usually more successful/easier than getting the Bb and B, even if I get the dub C. As far as the A I've gotten to where I can basically fudge it by lipping a G sharp or using alternate fingerings, it doesn't often come out as a nicely clear, distinct chromatic note. I've got plenty of physical & blowing power. If it was just a matter of running out of steam for the A, then the dub C wouldn't be coming out. There's obviously some physics issue going on.
I can feel what happens - the tongue arch, teeth opening, pressure distribution between the lips, and tension in the lips have to be just so and *bing* the C pops out. I'll even overshoot and hit an occasional double D.
You know, this might sound a bit funny, but when it comes to the double range, I disagree with me too, to a certain extent!
You're right, there is more to it when it comes to reaching the double high notes - as I've written in the past I think there's even a possibility that when we get into the double high range (around G# and above) there might be a phenomenon going on that is similar to what we do when singing falsetto. In our normal voice register the entire vocal chords vibrate, but when we sing in falsetto, what actually happens is we perform a muscle contraction that causes only the outer membrane of our vocal chords to vibrate, which gives most singers an instant 1/2 octave to even another full octave of singing register. When I play in the Double High C range it feels as if that might be happening with my lips - that only the outer membrane of lip tissue is actually vibrating. And the spot that many people describe as a "break" or if they are not successful in getting above it, a "barrier", might be this exact phenomenon.
But my posts here have been directed to the OP for a specific problem he has - he can play a full power Eb but wants a full power E. In other words, he just needs to move the break point up a half step. I had the same problem for years but at F#. I could play full power F#'s at the end of a triple show day back when I was with the circus. But I could only play a good, solid G if I was fresh at the beginning of the day, and the wind was blowin' from the right direction...
I finally moved my break point up to the G by really working the Part One exercises in Systematic Approach (where one holds the note until all air is gone and even then keeps trying to blow for a moment to really build up the blowing muscles). In fact, back in 2005 when I really went at it and did the exercises every day without fail for at least six months (more like eight I think), I got my full power range up to DHC and my "squiggly-wiggly" range (the range above the "break") to F and even sometimes G above the DHC.
Essentially, I want to just help this kid get his break point in range up a step or so. If he sticks with it and figures out later on how to access the notes in the double range, that would be great, but it's not a requirement for him at this time.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:33 am Post subject:
Billy B wrote:
E and Eb are the same.
You simply lengthen/shorten the tube by raising/depressing the second valve.
Well, yes. But: I don't know about you, but I can tell you that if I play the highest full-power note I am capable of playing with all three valves down and then release the valves to instantly shorten the tubing by a half octave's worth of length, I don't find that full-power note just sailing up a half an octave. And even though my piccolo trumpet is half the length of my Bb horn I can't play any higher on it. In fact, I usually can get a step or two higher on my Bb. Counter-intuitive, but true.
The problem the OP is facing (a good Eb but a practically non-existent E) is the same as I faced years ago when I could play a strong F# even at the end of the day, but could hardly ever play a G unless I was fresh at the beginning of the day. I'd play that F# and take my finger off the valve, and... continue to play an F#. I'd try reasoning with myself using basically the same thought you posted - just lift the finger and the note should sail right up. But it didn't. Even more maddening was the fact that I could usually get up to a DHC when doing my range exercises - but the notes from G on up were what one could call, "wimpy wish I hadn't even tried" notes. Not "he-man" notes.
I finally solved the problem by playing the exercises that develop blowing strength and then one day I found that if I played that F# and blew harder, I could get it to click up to the G. It wasn't a matter of tightening my lips or arching my tongue more. I just needed to blow harder.
You simply lengthen/shorten the tube by raising/depressing the second valve.
Well, yes. But: I don't know about you, but I can tell you that if I play the highest full-power note I am capable of playing with all three valves down and then release the valves to instantly shorten the tubing by a half octave's worth of length, I don't find that full-power note just sailing up a half an octave.
The problem the OP is facing (a good Eb but a practically non-existent E) is the same as I faced years ago when I could play a strong F# even at the end of the day, but could hardly ever play a G unless I was fresh at the beginning of the day. I'd play that F# and take my finger off the valve, and... continue to play an F#. I'd try reasoning with myself using basically the same thought you posted - just lift the finger and the note should sail right up. But it didn't.
I was worried (but fairly sure) that someone would try to make too much out of Billy B's simple statement.
The E and E♭ above the staff are further apart (easier to separate) than the G and F# above them (all half steps are not created equal).
E and E♭ above the staff are in the same "resonance group." John's example of playing 1-2-3 at the top of his range and switching to open is a drastic change of "resonance groups" and not comparable to Billy B's implication.
I can't think of a better name for resonance groups at the moment but, as an example, it is easier (at the most basic level) to move from middle G (in the staff) to A♭ by fingering G as 1-3 rather than open. 1-3 (G) and 2-3 (A♭) are in that same resonance group -- open to 2-3 crosses resonance groups.
The OP needs to realize (a powerful word) the very close association of E♭ and E and then develop tone and power on the E.
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject:
You are what Doc Reinhardt used to call a "high E♭ trumpet player."
Doc told me (more than once) that the chief causes of this phenomenon are:
1) Dropping the jaw for descending slurs
2) Smiling to ascend
3) Tonguing between the teeth (or worse, between the lips)
One thing you can do right now, no lessons needed, is to play (no tongue) using a breath response your tuning note C every time you pick up your horn. If that's comfortable, try playing a fourth space E every time you pick up your horn.
Playing several (dozens of) notes first thing with no tongue accomplishes two things:
1) Eliminates the "smiling" embouchure, encouraging the downward pointing of the mouth corners.
2) Prevents (over time) the reliance on the tongue to produce a sound.
My guess is that you have been picking up your cold horn for years and playing a low C or a 2nd line G first thing, probably tonguing, and maybe even tonguing between your teeth.
This is all I would tell somebody without seeing what he/she is doing, but many times the player is engaging in physical mannerisms that are holding him/her back.
There are many opinions here so far, and I disagree with many of them having not seen you actually playing. Maybe some of them are right, but I suspect that most of them missed the mark. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz
There are many opinions here so far, and I disagree with many of them having not seen you actually playing. Maybe some of them are right, but I suspect that most of them missed the mark.
Hi, Rich,
The others, and I, were, in most cases, trying to give the kid a reasonable (and non-harmful) tip in order to achieve his one particular goal within his time constraint.
Short-term tricks or band-aids will certainly seem to miss the mark when we all should be looking at long-term goals and, of course, there are methods/systems/approaches that he should be pursuing under the guidance of a teacher.
-Denny
– I wanted to mention a couple of your “Reinhardt” books that I have, so I just now went to your site to try to find the book that is very similar to “Focal Point” (I’m rearranging my studio and everything is in stacks right now). Didn’t see the book but I ordered the Two-fer of “Reinhardt for Beginners” (Very Hip!! Syncopation in the second measure on the first page!!!) and the PDF of “Ten Test Drills for Trumpet.” Thanks for the resources! Still hoping for 9x12 ;--))
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:45 am Post subject: Re: The barrier between high Eb and high E
John Mohan wrote:
But my posts here have been directed to the OP for a specific problem he has - he can play a full power Eb but wants a full power E. In other words, he just needs to move the break point up a half step. I had the same problem for years but at F#. I could play full power F#'s at the end of a triple show day back when I was with the circus. But I could only play a good, solid G if I was fresh at the beginning of the day, and the wind was blowin' from the right direction...
That Eb to E barrier seems odd to me just from what I experience. To go from Eb (2nd valve) to E I just let the valve up and it comes out. I don't have to go through the contortions I have to go through to get above Ab where I definitely run into a wall.
Something to do with mouth cavity shape or whatever? There has to be a reason for example why Maynard had what seemed like relatively easy dub C's from a very young age, even to the very end. Clearly he wasn't the same player he had been in his youth but he still had those C's in his back pocket even though he was in terrible physical condition, not in the best health and from what I've heard rarely practiced. I imagine he was nailing C's at his last concert. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
I made a short video for you folks. Didn't say all I wanted to because I wanted to be brief.
The point of the video is:
I'm not blowing hard but I am changing octave
I'm coordinating (as best I can) the parts of my playing mechanism
Going softly is far more likely to net results working thru breaks
I'm careful of setups and not blowing my chops apart
I haven't changed my chops/set for that - it is exactly how I play, however, when playing at normal to full volume the aperture will open more and I will equalise any mouthpiece pressure as best I can pushing forward with my chops
On the soft clips I'm using very little pressure
On the loud clips I'm using "enough" pressure and equalising this as best I can with my chops pushing back
For the Reinhardt guys...
Y'all know why I chipped my first entry at the end of the video. Careless mouth corner inhalation and loss of formation. Something I didn't do at the start of the video. What can I say? Old habits are hella hard to break. I am trying, and have been trying, very hard tho.
Side notes:
The audio has auto-gain. The first part on the 3TF is very very soft. pppp
The audio at the end in person would be obnoxiously loud in almost any circumstance.
Hope this helps and maybe validates my opinion a little. Proceed softly, don't jack your chops doing unusual and unnatural things, don't drop the jaw, don't over blow, don't look for tricks. Get with a teacher in person or on Skype. Rich Willey chimed in (beboppinfool) - he put me on the right path in 2005 on Skype (thanks!) and he can vouch for how screwed up my chops were!!
Check out Bryan Davis' "Trumpet A to Z" on YouTube - he has some great things to say about this stuff.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:55 am Post subject:
Hi Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to make that video. Nice notes on it (but you sure don't look well). I hope you get better real soon. The Rotavirus is NASTY!
Thanks for taking the time to make that video. Nice notes on it (but you sure don't look well). I hope you get better real soon. The Rotavirus is NASTY!
Best wishes,
John
Cheers, John! First time in years where I've literally no appetite. Maybe I can shed a few lbs 😂😂😂
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:27 am Post subject:
BeboppinFool wrote:
You are what Doc Reinhardt used to call a "high E♭ trumpet player."
Doc told me (more than once) that the chief causes of this phenomenon are:
1) Dropping the jaw for descending slurs
2) Smiling to ascend
3) Tonguing between the teeth (or worse, between the lips)
One thing you can do right now, no lessons needed, is to play (no tongue) using a breath response your tuning note C every time you pick up your horn. If that's comfortable, try playing a fourth space E every time you pick up your horn.
Playing several (dozens of) notes first thing with no tongue accomplishes two things:
1) Eliminates the "smiling" embouchure, encouraging the downward pointing of the mouth corners.
2) Prevents (over time) the reliance on the tongue to produce a sound.
My guess is that you have been picking up your cold horn for years and playing a low C or a 2nd line G first thing, probably tonguing, and maybe even tonguing between your teeth.
This is all I would tell somebody without seeing what he/she is doing, but many times the player is engaging in physical mannerisms that are holding him/her back.
There are many opinions here so far, and I disagree with many of them having not seen you actually playing. Maybe some of them are right, but I suspect that most of them missed the mark.
This is great advice, Rich. I agree with about 90% of it. It is virtually identical to advice I would give in a BE lesson (my spin on lip position is a bit more specific).
Yes, there really is such thing as a "high Eb player." Forty years of teaching has shown me that it is the single most common sticking point for high school kids (and mostly for the reasons that Rich listed above).
Remove the tongue from the equation, and get the chops set right. This will eventually solve the issue.
Be honest with yourself and claim the highest note you play with good sound and intonation. Back up 3 notes and play it at 1/2 normal volume. Work up a note at a time keeping volume the same or slightly lower. Try to use as little pressure as possible and see if your E doesn’t pop out right away at lower volume.You need to learn the shape of that E before applying lots of air. You must develop the correct shape and strength before getting volume. After learning note shape I can add volume, not vice versa.This has made things much easier and I have my g for a lot longer, and I’ve only been working it for2 months. You will also find the notes before the limit become clearer and stronger. Don’t forget 1st trumpet in a band is much more than a few hi notes and the next 2-3 notes take a little time😹 if you already have a good D the method I told you about should get you there pretty soon. Hi notes don’t have to be as loud to cut as lower register🙀 and they take less air to play 👍
I’m not a pro or a teacher but this has made a difference in strengthening my range and more than that by improving the sound.
Rod
Joined: 08 Oct 2008 Posts: 115 Location: McLean VA
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:15 am Post subject:
Augie Haas has a book, Build Your Range, that provides a methodical approach along with a series of recordings to play the exercises with. Practiced diligently, this will help you find the technique. In some respects, Claude Gordon’s Systematic Approach and James Stamp’s warmups approach the problem in similar fashion, but they don’t really provide as much guidance for you. If you are a little bit nuts, you might get the revised Cat Anderson book. A little bit different, but it works if you can stick with it.
I had the same problem with Eb to E a few years ago. Working on my lower register helped a decent amount. A lot of people say the lower register is the secret to helping unlock the upper register, and to a extent, if done correctly, will help. You won’t gain range overnight though, it’s gained through efficiency and proper air coordination, which is easier when you are relaxed, which low notes help with. Not to say you are tense in the upper register though. _________________ 1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4
What many also describe as a "break" that occurs somewhere up high is actually just the place in your range where you are blowing as hard as you can and can't generate any more air pressure.
The embouchure will not speak the note due to functional issues and lack of embouchure skill.
The fact that you can play an e-flat and not an E has NOTHING to do with air pressure or lack thereof.
It is embouchure skill and development. Period!
What you must do is reduce the overall embouchure effort while improving it's function for producing tone. If you can expand your range beyond what you need for performance you will have the "headroom" that will make this break disappear.
You must approach this gradually but I can show you how to have an INSTANT reduction in the overall effort to play that may get you over this hurdle.
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:13 am Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
Mohan wrote:
Quote:
What many also describe as a "break" that occurs somewhere up high is actually just the place in your range where you are blowing as hard as you can and can't generate any more air pressure.
The embouchure will not speak the note due to functional issues and lack of embouchure skill.
The fact that you can play an e-flat and not an E has NOTHING to do with air pressure or lack thereof.
It is embouchure skill and development. Period!
What you must do is reduce the overall embouchure effort while improving it's function for producing tone. If you can expand your range beyond what you need for performance you will have the "headroom" that will make this break disappear.
You must approach this gradually but I can show you how to have an INSTANT reduction in the overall effort to play that may get you over this hurdle.
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