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3rd slide o-rings effect on playing


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TonytheTiger
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:32 am    Post subject: 3rd slide o-rings effect on playing Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

Last year I bought an old Monke rotary that came with rubber rings on the third valve slide. When I take them off, there is a HUGE difference in the way the instrument plays (making it worse). I know the 3rd slide is very worn out, could this be what is causing such a big difference?

Tony
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly, when I took the rubber o-rings off my 8310z trumpet recently, the horn improved dramatically - more resonance, better slotting, better intonation. I'll never use rubber rings again.

I've read in several places that if your slides are too loose / worn out, then that can cause similar effects to leaky valves, which ruins intonation and response, particularly in the low register. I think that it's a relatively cheap fix for a good tech to fix, so that's a good place to start!
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always remove slide "O" rings from horns.

The supposed purpose of them is to eliminate any slide sound from closing an extended slide. What they actually do is create unneeded gaps in the tubing.

I've been playing for over 50 years. I've done more than 800 recording sessions. I've played in some of the finest venues in the country.

And I have NEVER been given the comment of "Tim, your slides make a 'banging' noise when you close them - can you do something about that so that our session/concert/rehearsal isn't RUINED, please?"

Going back to Ren Schilke's concept of the "L" / Tuning Bell horns, one of the primary purposes of that design is to eliminate any unneeded gap in the tubing. Makes the horn more acoustically "pure."

Adding in slide "O" rings total screws with that concept.

And if your valves are really all that leaky, O rings are only a very temporary and very minor band-aid to what really needs to be done to fix the problem.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
I always remove slide "O" rings from horns.

The supposed purpose of them is to eliminate any slide sound from closing an extended slide. What they actually do is create unneeded gaps in the tubing.

And I have NEVER been given the comment of "Tim, your slides make a 'banging' noise when you close them - can you do something about that so that our session/concert/rehearsal isn't RUINED, please?"


I don't have credentials anywhere near Tim's, but with over 50 years of playing, I've never been told to quiet my slides down either. It would seem that if the rubber O-rings were a necessary component, they would have been included in the original design and on every new horn coming from the manufacturer.

Turkle wrote:
Interestingly, when I took the rubber o-rings off my 8310z trumpet recently, the horn improved dramatically - more resonance, better slotting, better intonation. I'll never use rubber rings again.


Never had them on a horn and, it would seem, I never will.

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JoeLoeffler
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O-rings add length to the slide. Yes, this little bit matters. This makes your slides too long (on instruments that were not designed for them). Why would you want help to play out of tune?
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Holton ST-302 had very thin nylon washer on the 3rd slide. It didn't seem to me that they made any difference.

I've had a few horns where I installed a tiny o-ring on the stop rod. Again I didn't notice any difference in the playing.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim's comment triggered my going back through the performances I have been part of and to tell the truth, I cannot remember ever hearing my, or my section mates, clicking during a performance.

When I had my strad replated the tech put on the little O-rings. I was unused to them and removed them. Not because of the noise, but just it made the usage feel different.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that these are generally unnecessary, and possibly detrimental. But here’s a question: my 1965 Olds Recording has the O rings on the third slide, and nearly every picture of this horn I see has them, in combination with the third slide trigger. So I wonder if Olds intentionally designed the third slide slightly shorter to accommodate the rings? I do realize that the third slide trigger with the spring could be considerably noisier when the slide retracts, and the O rings on my horn certainly look OEM, they fit perfectly in combination with the slide tubes.

I could just remove them and see what happens, just wondering if anyone has any Olds history knowledge about this.

Edit: just realized I derailed the OP’S thread/ question, sorry!

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TonytheTiger
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for the input

but

nobody except Turkle actually answered my question or provided valuable information. I don't care about the "clicking" sound of the slide and no, the instrument does not play better without the O-rings (it is the opposite). I just want to know if a leaky 3rd slide could cause this and, if not, what could be the other possible causes. Please read before answering.

Tony

(I apologize if my directness came out as rude, it is not my intention)
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonytheTiger wrote:
Thank you all for the input

but

nobody except Turkle actually answered my question or provided valuable information. I don't care about the "clicking" sound of the slide and no, the instrument does not play better without the O-rings (it is the opposite). I just want to know if a leaky 3rd slide could cause this and, if not, what could be the other possible causes. Please read before answering.

Tony

(I apologize if my directness came out as rude, it is not my intention)


I don’t know, I did read before answering, but I had a bit of trouble understanding how the O rings figure into your question. Maybe others did also.

So if your question was would a leaky slide cause the horn to play “worse”, I would think it would, I guess you’re thinking that the O rings are helping seal the leaking third slide? I guess they might. Maybe try removing them, use a very thick slide grease and see what happens? Bottom line probably is, having the third slide assembly replaced may be necessary eventually.
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reactions like that are why I do fewer and fewer posts these days

It’s free site. You ask for free answers. Be happy that people take the time to do so.

Later, cats.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
Reactions like that are why I do fewer and fewer posts these days

It’s free site. You ask for free answers. Be happy that people take the time to do so.

Later, cats.


+1, 😼

Brad
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
Reactions like that are why I do fewer and fewer posts these days

It’s free site. You ask for free answers. Be happy that people take the time to do so.

Later, cats.


I for one value highly what you have to offer the community and hope you continue doing so for a long time.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
trpthrld wrote:
Reactions like that are why I do fewer and fewer posts these days

It’s free site. You ask for free answers. Be happy that people take the time to do so.

Later, cats.


I for one value highly what you have to offer the community and hope you continue doing so for a long time.

I wholeheartedly second that.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

Can we collectively just calm down a little?

I read the thread backwards; the reactions at the end make it seem like insults and nastiness have been flying around, but reading through there really doesn't seem to have been anything of the sort.

To offer my perspective:

-The OP asked a question (perhaps somewhat ambiguously)
-Tim replied with a well thought out reply
-The OP replied (stating that he did not want to cause offence with his directness) to say that it wasn't the actual question he asked.
-The forum descends into side-taking and finger pointing....

I honestly don't think anyone is in the wrong here, and there was no intent from any poster to cause offence. We all need to be a little calmer and less sensitive; I sometimes get the feeling on this site that people (and I am not talking about this thread) will only be happy if every thread says 'Yes I agree, great advice' and any other response sends us into a spiral of negativity. It puts off the established posters, the newcomers, the established pros and the keen amateurs.

Let's just try and remember we are all on the same side here!

All the best
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
RandyTX wrote:
trpthrld wrote:
Reactions like that are why I do fewer and fewer posts these days

It’s free site. You ask for free answers. Be happy that people take the time to do so.

Later, cats.


I for one value highly what you have to offer the community and hope you continue doing so for a long time.

I wholeheartedly second that.


And I’ll....uh....third that. Tim is one of a small number of members here who actually makes his living with his horn(s), I, for one, put more stock in the opinions of guys like that. He also went to the trouble of sending me a very detailed answer to a question I once had about a Walt Johnson case.

I don’t know if the OP intended to sound a bit snarky, but I thought he did. NO BIG DEAL, sometimes we all say things that we could have worded better.

Brad
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had o-rings on my main horns for many years (on the first and third slides of my Burbank Benge which has a thumb hoop, but only on the third slide of my CG Selmer which does not have a thumb hoop). I started using them when they were included on the horns after restorations were done on them in Europe. I liked the fact that they inhibited the clanking sound and since several of the sit down shows I did and also the European Tour of the Musical "Grease" made use of clip on horn mikes I was concerned about the sound making it through the house. The only evidence I have of trumpet-related noises making it into the house though had nothing to do with the slides - one time on "Cats" I neglected to turn off the horn mike (we had a foot switch for this) and I went and oiled my valves. 30 seconds later one of the sound guys came running into the band room to see what I was doing as it was definitely making it into the house! Oops.

I have no evidence that the o-rings make a significant difference in terms of preventing unwanted sounds from getting into the system, whether on a show or recording. And it seems to me that one could argue that for live music, those sounds would be part of the experience. In my experience the sound and feel of my horns has not been affected to any measurable amount by the presence of the o-rings.

All in all, I don't think this subject is a big deal in either direction. But in keeping with Trumpet Herald tradition, it doesn't take much of a spark around here to ignite a flame...

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the OP:

Yes, if your third slide is very leaky, the o-ring could obviously seal it up. But it would only do so when the slide is not extended and the third key is being pushed. If the third key is not pushed one wouldn't even need a third slide in place. If the third key is pushed but the third slide is extended, it would not make a difference in sealing things up because the o-ring would no longer be in contact with the outer tube. So basically, it would only make a difference on a few notes. I'm sure you've already figured the above out, though, but if not, for what it's worth, there it is.

You ought to get the tubes adjusted so they don't leak.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: 3rd slide o-rings effect on playing Reply with quote

TonytheTiger wrote:
Hello everyone,

Last year I bought an old Monke rotary that came with rubber rings on the third valve slide. When I take them off, there is a HUGE difference in the way the instrument plays (making it worse). I know the 3rd slide is very worn out, could this be what is causing such a big difference?

Tony


Yes. Leaks do not improve a brass instrument's performance.

At the risk of going off-topic:

To Brad's question about Olds slide rings:

You've correctly divined that they were standard equipment on the Recording as a silencing device. The problem with them, and also the rings that Conn used on Connstellations, is that they harden with age, losing their original function. Try some new O-rings on the slide.

To trpthld's point about gaps being created in the tubing by rings:

In most brass instruments, these gaps already exist. If they didn't, factory workers would be busy soldering slides shut, as solder would flow into the slide, instead of stopping at whatever small gap exists. Schilke comes about the closest to "no gaps" that I've seen, and I've had some exciting repair jobs when the slide is corroded shut and I have to disassemble and reassemble it.

Getzen uses rubber slide rings as standard equipment, and these are the ones I use on player's horns if they want them. They are maybe 1/32" thick, and I haven't noticed intonation problems worsen with them. I've used them on my Benge trumpets and they're perfect.

My 2p. (or maybe 3p.!)
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took the ring off the 3rd slide on my B1 this morning which had been on there for years.
While it might have made a very slight difference in response, it was not enough for a "eureka" moment.
What is happening now is the slide is hanging up when it is all the way in. Perhaps it is some residue from the ring or perhaps the tubing is a tiny bit bigger where the ring was because it did not wear that tiny fraction.
I'll clean it and see what happens.
R. Tomasek
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