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Question on Doubling up on Baritone


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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boog wrote:
I double on Euphonium sometimes, in a situation similar to yours. We have a concert band and a jazz band in our local organization, and sometimes I play trumpet in the jazz band (which I happen to direct), and Euph in the concert band. I can do either fairly well, but to do both fairly well at the same time, I have to practice both instruments everyday. Sometimes this can be a problem, even though I am retired. Other things around my hacienda take up my time and attention, so if I have to play a trumpet solo, for instance, I forgo the Euphonium to concentrate on my trumpet playing. Switching is not a problem, but if you have to do both well, you have to put in regular practice time on both.

I found a nice 3 valve Getzen 800 bell up "baritone'' on ebay a couple of years ago for a tick under $300. It was not beat up excessively, just the usual denting from use, and had a couple of minor problems but I fixed them satisfactorily. The horn was "rescued" by an amateur tinkerer (like myself), and I had to redo some brace soldering...and I added pull rings on the 3rd valve slide for tuning on the fly. So...the nicer horns out there crop up occasionally, so be particular about the brand you buy. I have not tried the Chinese-made ones showing up on the market, so I cannot give you an opinion. I would stick to the name brands...you know the drill.

I can switch from treble clef charts to bass clef charts with ease, so this is not an issue for me. If you are a trumpet player normally, it won't take you long to get used to bass clef baritone parts. Some advice, memorize the fingerings for bass clef. Easier in the long run. Or, just dig out the baritone TC parts and use trumpet fingerings. No shame doing this. I will admit, my technical facility during sight-reading is much better when I am reading "TC" parts!

Good luck, and be discriminating when looking for a used baritone.


Dave,
Great substantial feedback from somebody who has "been there and done that". A lot to take in for me.

I will need time to digest and work on your recommendations.

And if there is one thing I now have plenty of is time .... NOT....

In fact at times (no pun intended) I wonder how, during my career days, I have ever had time to hold down my real jobs.
I always hated how they interfered with my hobbies

Thanks so much for your help.
Cheers,
Harry
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mm55
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I learned something about this when I was an undergraduate, taking a trombone class. I would always, always, always do a full warmup on trumpet to start the day, followed by a few long tones and some Irons flexibilities. If I played trombone during the day, I would do a similar warmup on the bone, do whatever playing was needed for trombone class or practice, and when I was done, I would do the trumpet warmup again. I would avoid playing trombone before my weekly trumpet lesson.

I became very accustomed to the change after only a few weeks, and it's served me well when I have occasionally doubled on trombone, and for my annual euphonium boondoggle.

Mike Bogart discussed the trumpet/trombone doubling at a TOP horn section clinic I attended once, and he had a similar approach. He also recommended keeping the lower lip about the same distance from the bottom of the bone mouthpiece rim as it is from the bottom of the trumpet mouthpiece rim. I'm not sure exactly why. It helped me with the transition, but it had a negative effect on my bone playing.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play trumpet, tenor/alto horn, trombone, and baritone. I'm rarely called upon to play all of the above in one concert, but I've done it for the local Beatles album-recreation group (although after one painful experience I no longer attempt the "Penny Lane" piccolo trumpet solo when I've been playing low brass earlier in a concert).

There's a valve trombone sitting on a stand in my music room right now. Sometimes there's a slide trombone on that stand. When I warmed up for a big band rehearsal earlier tonight (I warm up at home when I have time) I alternated between trombone and trumpet. I don't play trombone in tonight's big band and I don't have any trombone gigs coming up, but I put in some time on trombone every time I practice.

If I had a regular alto/tenor horn gig I'd practice the thing (well, first I'd buy one that played in tune), but as long as my chops are comfortable on trumpet and trombone the alto/tenor mouthpiece feels comfortable too. The challenge with Eb/F horns as a doubler is re-setting your ear by a fourth or fifth so you can find "C."

Switching between demanding trumpet and low brass playing in the same concert can be a challenge, but I don't have any problem playing trombone one night and trumpet the next.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played trumpet in one band and trombone in another Lab Band when I was a student at North Texas. It had no effect but I will throw in the caveat that I did not practice on bone.

I think the main differences you have to adjust to are mouthpiece size and wind resistance, or lack thereof. It will probably come easy to some as it was for me, or more difficult for others.

One thing I would caution against is over thinking all this.
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starkadder
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Others trumpet players have doubled on the baritone. Here is a video where Maynard Ferguson does it. He makes the switch at the 4 minute mark:


Link


Also, David Daws switched from cornet to euphonium when his playing was impacted by an injury.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
I learned something about this when I was an undergraduate, taking a trombone class. I would always, always, always do a full warmup on trumpet to start the day, followed by a few long tones and some Irons flexibilities. If I played trombone during the day, I would do a similar warmup on the bone, do whatever playing was needed for trombone class or practice, and when I was done, I would do the trumpet warmup again. I would avoid playing trombone before my weekly trumpet lesson.

I became very accustomed to the change after only a few weeks, and it's served me well when I have occasionally doubled on trombone, and for my annual euphonium boondoggle.

Mike Bogart discussed the trumpet/trombone doubling at a TOP horn section clinic I attended once, and he had a similar approach. He also recommended keeping the lower lip about the same distance from the bottom of the bone mouthpiece rim as it is from the bottom of the trumpet mouthpiece rim. I'm not sure exactly why. It helped me with the transition, but it had a negative effect on my bone playing.


Great feedback. Much appreciated.
I am gonna stop at the local music rental store and try one out.
Cheers,
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I played trumpet in one band and trombone in another Lab Band when I was a student at North Texas. It had no effect but I will throw in the caveat that I did not practice on bone.

I think the main differences you have to adjust to are mouthpiece size and wind resistance, or lack thereof. It will probably come easy to some as it was for me, or more difficult for others.

One thing I would caution against is over thinking all this.


Great feedback. Thank you.
Time to stop at the local music rental store and try one out.
Cheers,
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

starkadder wrote:
Others trumpet players have doubled on the baritone. Here is a video where Maynard Ferguson does it.

Wow, thanks for this post. I never knew this about Maynard.
I am passing this link on to many of my friends.
Thanks again,
Cheers,
Harry
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll hear a good sampling of Maynard playing valve bone on this.
"Message from Newport."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xithuc4YdQA&start_radio=1&list=RDXithuc4YdQA&t=158
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the information.
The result is I am indeed gonna double up on a baritone.

My next task is to become familiar with the different baritone horns.

I have read several write up’s but what I am really looking for is a baritone forum or maybe a low brass forum.

Does anybody know of such a forum?

Thanks much.
Harry
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Shifty
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:

Does anybody know of such a forum?


http://www.themouthpiece.com/forum/

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TubeNet: http://forums.chisham.com/
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CartersPop
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in my school days I started on trumpet them french horn, an easy transition, although I never got to reading in F so my horn parts all had to be transposed into Bb. In HS got switched over to baritone as they had a lot of trumpets and being the school music administrator' kid was thought to be able to handle the transition easier and faster than others might, which I did. Played bari for marching band, Euph for winter concert band, and trumpet for winter jazz and spirit band, and occasional FH for solo and small group (quartet, quintet, etc..) pieces. I never noticed much trouble moving back and forth then, although I do remember preferring to start small mp and play up if more than one was being played over a relatively short period same day. Otherwise I found my small chops blown before getting to the needed high parts for trumpet or FH, particularly for regional and state competitions.

Am currently trying to get my chops back on cornet/trumpet and a marching FH Bb for church and possibly community band, mostly to play more with my youngest son around the house and such. Looking to get back into a euph as well, although might settle for a decent practice bari if need be. Currently driving a newish Olds student cornet, a vintage but very nice King Liberty trumpet, and a few weeks ago picked up a Jinyin marching FH for cheap in like new condition. I can recommend them all as being great players, particularly the King and the Jinyin (amazingly easy blow). I like you am seeking the right piece to get back into the lower register, preferably a 4 valve euph that I can play in Bb like I grew up on. One I am considering is a real budget end model that can be had off amazon for around $200, a Glory 4 valve rotary euph that I have heard on good reliable advice is a chinese made and rebadged Jinyin or Jinbao horn with case. And since Amazon has a 30 day money back guarantee I am not sure I could go wrong in giving it a run for a few weeks, although no guarantees about longevity of the valves functioning, but IMHO that is usually less of an issue with rotaries than with vertical valves with the chinese horns. And if that does not work out there have been several similar Schillers on ebay for only a couple hundred more in good used condition. Or less desirable a marching euph in 3 valve Bb set up, although I have never held one that far from my body before, and worry a bit that my back may not tolerate that.

I saw from your ebay potentials list that you had several different varieties from FH to marching FH to Alto to bari to euph marching bari marching euph and all various valve set ups. That is casting a wide net as far as horns are concerned. But I personally do not think it out of the realm of possible, understanding that there might be some sacrifices in range, especially in the smaller mp horns if you spend much time on the bigger blows. But practice on the smaller will definitely help the top of your bigger horn play. Good luck and keep us other cross-over-blowers in the loop with your successes or failures.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shifty, Proam, thanks for the links. I am in the process of checking them out.

CartersPop, thanks much for your substantial response. It is supposed to snow here tomorrow. So I will read your comments in detail by the fireplace

Meanwhile I have (for now) come to the conclusion that the King 2266 or 2268 Artist Series Baritone seems to get some good reviews.

CartersPop, as you said I can try them out for some period via the WWBW or Musicians-Friend (that is how I bought many previous horns). Too bad they are out of stock.

On Monday I am going to a local rental store to see if I can rent a baritone for a few months or so.

Meanwhile a problem, that has been lurking for a while, with the use of my left arm is getting worse. It is the result of a childhood neck issues that now, in my over-3/4-century-years, has resulted in premature degeneration of the soft tissues between two vertebra's, causing left arm pain in certain arm positions.

To make a long story short, holding up the trumpet with the typical trumpet left-wrist position, becomes very painful after 10 or so minutes.

I was seen by a specialist at the local Orthopaedic center. They did all the "normal stuff" including X-rays. The doc seems to think that therapy will resolve this issue for some few years to come. The therapy will start in another week or so.

For now I am using a sling and that will allow my to play 20 or so minutes at a time with 10 minutes breaks.

I tried holding a friends Baritone Horn. For that my left arm feels fine. No issues.

I play in a few local "geezer bands". So now is the time to slowly get ready for the low brass section. Just in case.

Again, thanks to all posters on this thread. Your responses are very much appreciated.

Cheers,
Harry
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CartersPop
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry,

I am sorry to hear of your medical ailments and the restrictions they currently place on your ability to partake in the joy of making music as we all must enjoy. I too am suffering from medical problems causing similar constraints, the reason I am turning back to music from my previously more physically active lifestyle. As a still practicing physician I know a bit of what I speak.

Baritone, alto horn, or euphonium in standard configuration, all being lap-resting horns offering variability in left hand positioning and most played with right hand fingerings, should be easier on your left arm and neck than any left hand held horn, be it trumpet, cornet or any of the marching style horns like mellohorn, FH or bari/euph designs. Sounds like you are headed that direction for now at least. Best of luck with your ills and your new low brass play time. May you find new joy there in these golden years.

j
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find a diameter that doesn't mess with your trumpet chops and ignore the baritone/euphonium purists. Try some really small trombone mouthpieces with deeper cups. While it's not not what I would call "really small," I use a Bach 8.5BW mouthpiece on baritone.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over the 40 years I taught instrumental music I played along with students on everything, from flute to percussion. One of the best things I gained from playing bass clef, either euphonium or tuba is that when one learns the fingerings, he/she/it also now has the transpositions for a large number or situations.

Want to play trumpet in Eb or with an alto sax player on your Bb trumpet or Hertel in Eb on the Bb side of your pic? Just read the music as if it were bass clef, use those fingerings and add another flat to the key signature. D trumpet music on your A pic, or all that Mahler Tpt in F on your C horn? Ditto. Trumpet in C on your A pic? Just read the note as bass clef, not the fingerings.

I can go on, but once you figure it out, it's hard to miss, even if sight reading. With all the D music I play on pic I rarely even consider the actual pitch or "note name" I'm playing.

BTW, During all those years playing along with the kids I never found another instrument that negatively affected my trumpet chops. Clarinet is somewhat of a bear, but usually the problem was that I was not getting in enough trumpet with everything else. Good luck.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Find a diameter that doesn't mess with your trumpet chops and ignore the baritone/euphonium purists. Try some really small trombone mouthpieces with deeper cups. While it's not not what I would call "really small," I use a Bach 8.5BW mouthpiece on baritone.


Thanks much for your reply.

Quote:
ignore the baritone/euphonium purists

I am coming to that conclusion as well. I am looking at the "smallish" Schilke 42 through 46, mostly because I can borrow them from a friend Trombone player. I may also order some smaller Curry Trombone pieces for trial from the MouthPiece express.

Thanks again.
Cheers,
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
Over the 40 years I taught instrumental music I played along with students on everything, from flute to percussion. One of the best things I gained from playing bass clef, either euphonium or tuba is that when one learns the fingerings, he/she/it also now has the transpositions for a large number or situations.

Want to play trumpet in Eb or with an alto sax player on your Bb trumpet or Hertel in Eb on the Bb side of your pic? Just read the music as if it were bass clef, use those fingerings and add another flat to the key signature. D trumpet music on your A pic, or all that Mahler Tpt in F on your C horn? Ditto. Trumpet in C on your A pic? Just read the note as bass clef, not the fingerings.

I can go on, but once you figure it out, it's hard to miss, even if sight reading. With all the D music I play on pic I rarely even consider the actual pitch or "note name" I'm playing.

BTW, During all those years playing along with the kids I never found another instrument that negatively affected my trumpet chops. Clarinet is somewhat of a bear, but usually the problem was that I was not getting in enough trumpet with everything else. Good luck.


Craig, thanks much for you reply.

I can tell you this though, since I am a comeback player and have lived over 3/4 of a century, I have a list of urgent priorities. On this list reading bass Cleff is faaar to the bottom. In fact I have scheduled that to after I have lived a full century

There is no need for me to learn it anyway, because in my local geezer community band the baritone parts can be had in either the base or treble clef.

Thanks again for your reply. Much appreciated.

Cheers,
Harry
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CartersPop
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I guess my doubler comeback is also now getting on track. I pulled the trigger tonite on a 1923 Pan-American 40I Baritone in pretty darn good looking shape, and hope to have it by the weekend to start tooling around on for that big mouth feel again. 40 years away from that mouthpiece size is going to feel weird. Will keep you posted.
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