| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:30 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| motohead400 wrote: | | Think about what happens when you double tongue with tu ku tu ku at the top of your mouth, especially on the ku. If the arched position of the tongue really affected the pitch, your pitch would be up and down when double tonguing as the tongue gets closer and further away from the roof of the mouth but that's not at all what happens. I'd say that right there is proof the tongue does nothing to the pitch. I currently play with an incredibly strong lead player (he played with the Glen Miller orchestra many years ago). He agrees that tongue position doesn't help at all. |
You're running with a flawed premise - the tongue can make some complex maneuvers - double/triple tonguing doesn't drive your tongue up - the back of the tongue acts as a valve to stop the air. You'll find you can have your tongue protruding from between your lips and make the "k" and/or have some object like a hard boiled egg in your mouth and still make the "k".
You, me, Allen Vizzutti, kalijah, your friend the lead player all use tongue arch whether your friend or kalijah realize it or not.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3286
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
His premise is not flawed. In fact, it is insightful. When executing rapid double and triple tonguing, the tongue is held quite high and forward for that activity. Even for low tones. His reasoning is that if the tongue position has some causative effect on the pitch played then only high tones could be played or that rapid pitch changes would occur as the tongue moves for articulation.
His logic and reasoning is correct. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kalijah wrote: | | His premise is not flawed. |
Yeah it is.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3286
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | You, me, Allen Vizzutti, kalijah, your friend the lead player all use tongue arch whether your friend or kalijah realize it or not. |
I never said or claimed that my tongue does not arch or that I don't realize when it does. All of those also use the lip tension to control pitch whether they realize it or not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | You, me, Allen Vizzutti, kalijah, your friend the lead player all use tongue arch whether your friend or kalijah realize it or not. |
I never said or claimed that my tongue does not arch or that I don't realize when it does. All of those also use the lip tension to control pitch whether they realize it or not. |
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
motohead400
New Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2023
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: |
You're running with a flawed premise - the tongue can make some complex maneuvers - double/triple tonguing doesn't drive your tongue up - the back of the tongue acts as a valve to stop the air. You'll find you can have your tongue protruding from between your lips and make the "k" and/or have some object like a hard boiled egg in your mouth and still make the "k".
You, me, Allen Vizzutti, kalijah, your friend the lead player all use tongue arch whether your friend or kalijah realize it or not. |
And what happens when the back of your tongue comes up to stop the air? You're arching it very quickly. I'm not sure how on earth you could think double/triple tonguing doesn't drive the tongue up if you're doing the typical tu ku tu ku style? In those brief moments as that aperature is getting smaller and smaller to nothing from the tongue argh, the pitch should be affected if tongue arch actually does what people think it does. If that was the case it would basically be impossible to double tongue rapidly while keeping the pitch the same. Also as kalijah pointed out, when rapid double or triple tonguing you naturally keep the tongue very high already as well.
Sure we all may move our tongues up when going higher (as a by product of how you use other muscles in the region), and yes there's video of this, but correlation does not mean causation. You could start some trend that you have to lift your right foot up higher to play higher and record hundreds of trumpet players doing that and playing super high. That still wouldn't mean it has any effect whatsoever on actually going higher, and examining it with logic should make it readily obvious that it has no effect.
In case you're wondering what sparked me to start commenting on this as a new member, I'm helping my nephew who's in 6th grade with trumpet. His band director, who's not even a brass player, told him to arch his tongue to go higher. I searched for "trumpet tongue arch bogus" and stumbled across this thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| motohead400 wrote: | In those brief moments as that aperature is getting smaller and smaller to nothing from the tongue argh, the pitch should be affected if tongue arch actually does what people think it does. If that was the case it would basically be impossible to double tongue rapidly while keeping the pitch the same. Also as kalijah pointed out, when rapid double or triple tonguing you naturally keep the tongue very high already as well.
|
Tongue pushback against the air supply is different than tongue arch. As noted you can do the "k" with a golfball in your mouth where it's impossible to arch the tongue.
Out of curiosity what's the top of your range? If your nervous system is remotely normal I don't see how you can't perceive the difference between what happens when double-tonguing and when playing higher, certainly approaching and over high C.
kalijah has some....unique notions about things.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doug Elliott
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1191
Location: Silver Spring, MD
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'd just like to point out a few things:
Everybody's mouth is different.
The tongue is a very complex muscle.
Various articulations and shaping can occur in many different parts of the tongue - T, D, G, and K are not single specific places - for example, I can anchor the tip and still double tongue.
"Arching" is similarly not limited to one area.
What you think and feel that you're doing may not be what's actually happening. And that goes for all of the pros (and amateurs) who swear that they do or don't do this or that.
Last edited by Doug Elliott on Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Doug Elliott wrote: | I'd just like to point out a few things:
Everybody's mouth is different.
The tongue is a very complex muscle.
Various articulations and shaping can occur in many different parts of the tongue - T, D, G, and K are not single specific places - for example, I can anchored the tip and still double tongue.
"Arching" is similarly not limited to one area.
What you think and feel that you're doing may not be what's actually happening. |
Is there anyone seeing this who genuinely believes their tongue is in the same position double-tonguing on a C below the staff vs double-tonguing on a 2nd ledger C?
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 1033
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
It’s funny how more often than not, discussions on Trumpet Herald narrow down to arguing whether a single factor is either solely responsible for something, or completely irrelevant. The ‘what makes a cornet sound the way it does’ for example, often boils down to bore, wrap or mouthpiece. The notion that it may be a combination of factors (applied to various degrees to compensate for others) rarely comes up.
Did it ever occur to some of you that tongue arch may simply be part of a number of muscles that affect the pitch? Given the body’s adaptility it’s not unthinkable that there are several ways to change the pitch; with some players using specific muscles more or less depending on their technique or physical makeup. Excessive lip pressure can also cause pitch changes for example, so we know the nody has multiple ways of generating a result.
To me it’s not unthinkable that some players use their tongue arch to the point where they barely notice their aperture changing; or vice versa. To expand on Robert P’s notion; the changes made by the tongue motion could very well be compensated unconciously by other parts of the embouchure. Most motions the human body makes are a complex coördination of muscles so to think trumpet playing isn’t seems illogical.
tl;dr The premise that pitch changes singularly caused or cannot be caused at all by any single part of the body is a flawed one imho. People play using different techniques so just because one player does or doesn’t do something does not mean the same applies to everyone.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stuartissimo wrote: | | It’s funny how more often than not, discussions on Trumpet Herald narrow down to arguing whether |
You've actually done statistical research and compiled data on this? 
| Quote: | | tl;dr The premise that pitch changes singularly caused or cannot be caused at all by any single part of the body is a flawed one imho. People play using different techniques so just because one player does or doesn’t do something does not mean the same applies to everyone. |
Is your tongue in the same position double-tonguing on a C below the staff as it is double-tonguing on a 2nd ledger C?
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 1033
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: | | You've actually done statistical research and compiled data on this? |
No, but anecdotal evidence suggest a possible trend 
| Robert P wrote: | | Is your tongue in the same position double-tonguing on a C below the staff as it is double-tonguing on a 2nd ledger C? |
Even if it were, it doesn’t matter. My point is that there are so many ways to produce a sound that there’s probably players for which either is true.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stuartissimo wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | Is your tongue in the same position double-tonguing on a C below the staff as it is double-tonguing on a 2nd ledger C? |
Even if it were, it doesn’t matter. My point is that there are so many ways to produce a sound that there’s probably players for which either is true. |
Your honor, please instruct the witness to answer the question.
Isn't it TRUE Mr. stuartissimo that for YOU personally your tongue IS in fact in a different place when double-tonguing a high C than when double-tonguing a C below the staff? I remind you you're under oath....
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9120
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
How do you spell, "Beating a Dead Horse"? 
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 10:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kehaulani wrote: | | How do you spell, "Beating a Dead Horse"? |
F-R-E-E B-U-Z-Z-I-N-G I-S P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9120
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 1033
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 10:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Robert P wrote: | Your honor, please instruct the witness to answer the question.
Isn't it TRUE Mr. stuartissimo that for YOU personally your tongue IS in fact in a different place when double-tonguing a high C than when double-tonguing a C below the staff? I remind you you're under oath.... |
Was planning to hold my tongue, but since you want to know so deperately I decided to check it (because I honestly didn’t know). As far as I can tell, the tip of my tongue is doing more or less the same…but the back isn’t. Whether it’s cause or effect I cannot say though.
| Robert P wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | | How do you spell, "Beating a Dead Horse"? |
F-R-E-E B-U-Z-Z-I-N-G I-S P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S
|
LOL
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2618
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stuartissimo wrote: |
Was planning to hold my tongue, |
Ahahaha you made a funny.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mike ansberry
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1608
Location: Clarksville, Tn
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I really don't care about the physics of the situation at all. For me, thinking about keeping my tongue forward with the tip down and the area slightly behind the tip arched with the back of the tongue down helps me to play with a better sound, more range, and more endurance. The end result is what is important to me and I don't care a bit about what is really going on according to physics.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bethmike
Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2020
Posts: 203
Location: NW of ORD
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
mike ansberry wrote:
| Quote: | | keeping my tongue forward with the tip down and the area slightly behind the tip arched with the back of the tongue down |
Exactly what I do. Works very well for me. Not pushing the tongue forward enough is where I mess up if I get lazy.
_________________
Bach190ML43
Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
