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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:18 pm Post subject: Flugelhorn shank too big |
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Can the shank of a flugelhorn mouthpiece, that is too big, be altered/modified to the specifications of a large morse taper (yamaha taper)? In a situation where I can pick-up a mouthpiece I've been looking for, that is no longer produced, but I'm told that the shank is too big. I am of the belief that I could take the mouthpiece to a custom shop that deals with mouthpieces and have them alter the mp to the correct the taper/size shank.
appreciate the feedback _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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pinstriper Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2013 Posts: 340 Location: Portlandia, OR
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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A better strategy might be a new leadpipe for the flugel. No permanent changes to regret. _________________ ~'77 DEG Dynasty II Soprano Bugle in G
'13 Chinese POS "Hawk" branded Flugel
'59 Olds Ambassador Cornet
'51 Olds Super
'69 Olds Studio
'40 Olds Special Cornet, Military Issued |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1108 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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New leadpipe is a good suggestion.
While pricey, another option is to have someone such as Matt Frost scan and copy the mouthpiece but make the copy with the correct shank for your flugel. The benefit is he can make new ones anytime and he can mix and match from his own designs or his duplications catalog. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't consider installing a new leadpipe because that would limit the mouthpiece to just that one flugelhorn and I would be unable to use any other mouthpiece on that flugelhorn either.
having the mouthpiece scanned and copied to the correct proportions is a good idea, but I don't believe that would be cost effective for me. I want to believe that if the existing shank could be altered to the correct large more proportions without damaging the rest of the mouthpiece this would cost less than scans and copies.
Thanks for the comments. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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First, are you sure that the shank is too big?
And yes, within certain obvious limitations a shank can be made smaller. I own a (Yamaha) Canadian Brass Regular trumpet mouthpiece of which the shank is made to fit a Conn pré 1958 cornet. That's a big change. Only the plating of the shank has gone. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2351 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:34 am Post subject: |
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I second the direction(s) of either a second leadpipe with the appropriate receiver or a copy of the mouthpiece that you like with the appropriate shank.
Not only is the alteration you're thinking of perminent but any alterations affect more than you think... any little change will have an affect upon areas that are surprising.
There are mouthpieces that are wonderful that don't cost an arm and a leg...
Curry comes to mind, but there are many others, that are not only great pieces but are available in all the different Flugel morse sizes. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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superviking805 Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2009 Posts: 154 Location: Santa Barbara
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | I wouldn't consider installing a new leadpipe because that would limit the mouthpiece to just that one flugelhorn and I would be unable to use any other mouthpiece on that flugelhorn either.
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I don't know which flugel you own but for the majority the leadpipe is interchangeable and costs less than a mouthpiece. I have a set of 3 large, small, and French, for my horn that were around $50 ea |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8927 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Contact a mouthpiece expert like Bob Reeves and tell them about the mouthpiece and they should be bel to tell you if the shank can be machined to suit.
That said, I also favor your buying an extra mouthpipe with a proper receiver so that you can swap between shanks as you like. Less expensive, and you don't have to alter the unreplaceable mouthpiece. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3779 Location: AL
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Just out of curiosity, what mouthpiece is it? _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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B. Scriver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 1204 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: |
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What is the mouthpiece?
This is for a Yamaha flugel?
Does the mpc shank have a taper or is the shank straight?
And, how do you know that the shank is too big? Was it measured, does it wobble, does it not engage the receiver?
Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com |
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JeffM729 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 444 Location: Parrish, FL
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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If the mouthpiece is for your Conn Flugel which is from the 1960's and made in Switzerland, they take a cornet sized shank, I believe.
You can check it easily enough. |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | Contact a mouthpiece expert like Bob Reeves and tell them about the mouthpiece and they should be bel to tell you if the shank can be machined to suit.
That said, I also favor your buying an extra mouthpipe with a proper receiver so that you can swap between shanks as you like. Less expensive, and you don't have to alter the unreplaceable mouthpiece. |
Reached out to them and it sounds like they can help. I don't think I'll need to go getting a new mouthpipe route. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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JeffM729 wrote: | If the mouthpiece is for your Conn Flugel which is from the 1960's and made in Switzerland, they take a cornet sized shank, I believe.
You can check it easily enough. |
It takes a large morse taper (Yamaha taper). Cornet shank will not fit. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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What is the brand and model of the mouthpiece? The chances are that you could find a very similar cup and rim in another brand. |
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pinstriper Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2013 Posts: 340 Location: Portlandia, OR
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | I wouldn't consider installing a new leadpipe because that would limit the mouthpiece to just that one flugelhorn and I would be unable to use any other mouthpiece on that flugelhorn either.
-snip- |
Flugel leadpipes are removable, as they function as the tuning slide. It isn't a permanent modification to the instrument or mouthpiece.
So, if your mouthpiece is large morse, and the original leadpipe is small morse or french taper, getting a new leadpipe for large morse allows you to use that mouthpiece, or any other large morse mouthpiece with that flugel.
And that mouthpiece is already compatible with every other large morse flugel.
Substitute small, large, or french taper in the above as the situation fits.
If your mouthpiece is some vintage taper and not large or small morse, or french taper, then you are ALREADY in the situation where that mouthpiece can't be used with other horns.
I think we're back to needing to know what this mystery mouthpiece is in the first place. _________________ ~'77 DEG Dynasty II Soprano Bugle in G
'13 Chinese POS "Hawk" branded Flugel
'59 Olds Ambassador Cornet
'51 Olds Super
'69 Olds Studio
'40 Olds Special Cornet, Military Issued |
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robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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+1 for swapping the leadpipe, assuming it’s a tuning leadpipe, like most flugels.
Like one of the other posters, I have a different leadpipe for each taper so I can switch between favorite mouthpieces. It takes seconds to do.
Just make sure you measure the OD accuratelh, and don’t assume it’s the same as the main bore. I made that mistake the first time I bought one and I ended up with a pipe that was too large. Fortunately, it fit another flugel! _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think there may be a misunderstanding of terminology: Leadpipe vs mouthpiece. To me a leadpipe is the mounted onto horn and connects into the valve block. A mouthpipe is the piece that is inserted into the leadpipe and acts as a tuning slide. The first two responders mentioned a new leadpipe which I took to mean the pipe that is mounted and connects to the valve block. Operating with this understanding, I didn't think it would make sense for me to have a new leadpipe installed onto my flugelhorn. What they meant was to look into getting a new removable pipe (I would describe this as the mouthpipe) on my flugelhorn.
which is more appropriate leadpipe or mouthpipe? are they interchangeable?
I see the merit in this, however, right now for me, I don't think I would need to go this route. My flugelhorn uses a large morse taper, so I only look at mouthpieces that are offered with a large morse taper. Effectively, I wouldn't need any other pipe (bach or french taper).
The mouthpiece that I am looking at purchasing, based on what the seller has told me, is the mouthpiece shank is bigger than a large morse taper. The shank doesn't fit the parameters of a yamaha, bach or french taper. I believe it defective inventory because of the disproportioned shank size. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Every poster here meant the removable pipe of course.
Still you don't mention the mouthpiece. The problem is, a flügelhorn mouthpiece that is too big for a large morse taper can't be a flügelhorn mouthpiece with one exception: the German shank which is something like a trumpet shank and is used on German and Austrian rotary flügels. As a VERY rough generalisation: these mouthpieces are not a first choice for a perinet flügel.
At the same time there is so much confusion about flügelhorn mp tapers that you can't go blindly on somebody else's words. |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1108 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:41 am Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | I think there may be a misunderstanding of terminology: Leadpipe vs mouthpiece. To me a leadpipe is the mounted onto horn and connects into the valve block. A mouthpipe is the piece that is inserted into the leadpipe and acts as a tuning slide. The first two responders mentioned a new leadpipe which I took to mean the pipe that is mounted and connects to the valve block. Operating with this understanding, I didn't think it would make sense for me to have a new leadpipe installed onto my flugelhorn. What they meant was to look into getting a new removable pipe (I would describe this as the mouthpipe) on my flugelhorn. |
Leadpipe and mouthpipe are typically synonymous, and on a flugelhorn refer to the removable portion. It is analogous to the leadpipe on a trumpet or a cornet, as in it is the first length of pipe after the mouthpiece engagement. Some players refer to a flugelhorn leadpipe as a tuning shank or a tuning bit, but still understand when others call it a leadpipe.
The portion attached to the horn is a receiver, just like, say, the main tuning slide assembly on a trumpet - the outer slides are also receivers.
The leadpipe assembly on a flugelhorn also functions as the main tuning slide.
Replacing the leadpipe on a flugelhorn is easy because one can be made and turned to the correct diameter to fit into the receiver without modifying the instrument (no torches or solder). _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2582
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:01 am Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | The mouthpiece that I am looking at purchasing, based on what the seller has told me, is the mouthpiece shank is bigger than a large morse taper. The shank doesn't fit the parameters of a yamaha, bach or french taper. I believe it defective inventory because of the disproportioned shank size. |
If you take the new mouthpiece to a machine shop along with another mouthpiece they can use as a model of the dimensions of how you want the shank to end up they may be able to put the new mouthpiece on a lathe and hone it down to size. You just need to find a machine shop that will do very small jobs like this and ask them. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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