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mafields627
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Joined: 09 Nov 2001
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Location: AL
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| PieterS wrote: |
Very interesting indeed: "Large mouthpieces are really good at hiding poor technique".
Stupid generalisation. How does that sound, a player with poor technique on a large mouthpiece? Like a better player? No mouthpiece will give you anything you don't have, certainly not technique. |
I think it's true to a certain extent. There are some things that I find easier on a trombone mouthpiece because of the extra room, but in my experience the extremes of mouthpiece size both expose poor technique.
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mafields627
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: |
I asked Curry about that option and was informed that the Curry 5C isn't just a smaller version of the Curry 3C. But that the Curry 5C rim more resembles the Bach 5C rim which is a very different shape. |
I've never understood why mouthpiece makers don't pick a profile and maintain it through their entire line.
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Tpt_Guy
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Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| PieterS wrote: |
Very interesting indeed: "Large mouthpieces are really good at hiding poor technique".
Stupid generalisation. How does that sound, a player with poor technique on a large mouthpiece? Like a better player? No mouthpiece will give you anything you don't have, certainly not technique. |
I think he's stating rather poorly what Jens Lindemann is talking about when he says that a smaller mpc is more efficient. It has smaller targets so the player really has to be precise to hit the center. With a larger mouthpiece, there is more room for the player to play off the center and still play well. I find it to be true from my own experience that a smaller mpc requires more precision and accuracy, though I still play larger sizes because smaller sizes are not comfortable.
I would consider playing on the center better technique than playing off the center.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ktNxEX8Ggw
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brassmusician
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Joined: 25 Feb 2016
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| PieterS wrote: |
Very interesting indeed: "Large mouthpieces are really good at hiding poor technique".
Stupid generalisation. How does that sound, a player with poor technique on a large mouthpiece? Like a better player? No mouthpiece will give you anything you don't have, certainly not technique. |
Good point. I found some points I did not agree with in that article. Specifically I think that rim shape is quite possibly a more significant variable that just overall internal diameter. I also feel it is essential that the lips can execute freely and with the considerable variation in lip shape and thickness that different players have, which mouthpiece works can be very very different for each player.
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| mafields627 wrote: | | cheiden wrote: |
I asked Curry about that option and was informed that the Curry 5C isn't just a smaller version of the Curry 3C. But that the Curry 5C rim more resembles the Bach 5C rim which is a very different shape. |
I've never understood why mouthpiece makers don't pick a profile and maintain it through their entire line. |
It's generally held that Vincent Bach created an array of pieces to suit a variety of players. And while the numbering system is generally in size order it has never been a systematic progression. Because of this, if folks are struggling to determine an optimum size I usually steer them to Yamaha pieces which are typically much more uniform.
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Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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cheiden
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| brassmusician wrote: | | Specifically I think that rim shape is quite possibly a more significant variable that just overall internal diameter. |
I agree. If the rim shape is preserved I can play fairly comfortably on a variety of sizes. Relatively small changes in rim shape are far more problematic.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Irving
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| The diameter of Bach mouthpieces coincide with their numbers in terms of width. Usually, since mistakes have gotten through QC. The rim shapes are all different though. As far as Yamaha goes, I find that the rim shapes aren't exactly alike. For example 17 C4 rim doesn't feel the same as a 13 C4 to me, which is subjective. I know the sizes are different, but to me the rims were also different. Bach rims are radically different from each other when compared to Yamaha. Anyway, just try them first. At least you will know if a rim is unsuitable right away. |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | | The diameter of Bach mouthpieces coincide with their numbers in terms of width. Usually, since mistakes have gotten through QC. The rim shapes are all different though. As far as Yamaha goes, I find that the rim shapes aren't exactly alike. For example 17 C4 rim doesn't feel the same as a 13 C4 to me, which is subjective. I know the sizes are different, but to me the rims were also different. Bach rims are radically different from each other when compared to Yamaha. Anyway, just try them first. At least you will know if a rim is unsuitable right away. |
I don't believe that Vincent Bach originally intended all his pieces to have identical rims. It's also understood that Bach did indeed have periods marked by significant inconsistency. Also, at various times Bach redefined the geometry of various pieces.
I understand that both Yamaha (and certainly Schilke) have a number of artist models in their lineup that make these pieces out of step with the other familied traits.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Jerry
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| mafields627 wrote: | | I've never understood why mouthpiece makers don't pick a profile and maintain it through their entire line. |
GR is one manufacturer that does a pretty good job of that.
I believe that Bach and Schilke started out making mouthpieces for individual players and stuck numbers on them to show where they lined up with other mouthpieces they made. They seemed more concerned with identifying width and depth than with identifying rim profile. |
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Irving
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| I agree. Bach designed his rims to be different, even within the same number family. The rims of a 6, 6B and 6C ( there was even a 6 1/2 A) are all different. Not only that, but the rims have changed over the years as well. it is a credit to Bach that his mouthpieces, or better said, the descendants of his original mouthpieces, are still being used after 100 years. |
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amarokmclion
Regular Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| mafields627 wrote: | | cheiden wrote: |
I asked Curry about that option and was informed that the Curry 5C isn't just a smaller version of the Curry 3C. But that the Curry 5C rim more resembles the Bach 5C rim which is a very different shape. |
I've never understood why mouthpiece makers don't pick a profile and maintain it through their entire line. |
This is something that drives me crazy too...
By the way thanks for the info. I guess I'll go on a mouthpiece hunt soon  |
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brassmusician
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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So which manufacturers offer the same rim design in different sizes? GR has been mentioned, not Curry, maybe Warburton...any others?
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| brassmusician wrote: | | So which manufacturers offer the same rim design in different sizes? GR has been mentioned, not Curry, maybe Warburton...any others? |
Matt Frost
Jeff Parke
I think the Schilke Symphony Series all share the same 1CH rim profile.
Curry is an option: all cups within a given diameter keep the same rim, with the BC series being an exception. So one could order a 5Z and a 5B, and they would have different cups but the same rim profile. Also, one can mix and match as a custom order, such as a 5C rim on a 10-1/2C or some such.
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Brassnose
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Let me throw in a European manufacturer or two. Josef Klier make excellent mouthpieces at very reasonable cost. They are highly systematic as far as rim sizes etc goes. Tilz would be another maker of interest but I have never played a Tilz.
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Irving
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| The JK ( Klier) USA models are very good copies of older Bachs. They claim that they are copies of Mt. Vernons. They come with a stock 28 hole, but they can be ordered with a 25 hole. 11.6 and 11.8 mm respectively. The stock backbore is very large. I like the Kliers better than the Bachs that are being made today. these are called the USA models. The other models are another ball of wax. They seem to be more for rotary trumpets, or they are European models not widely used in the US, since they aren't similar to Bach, Schilke, Yamaha or any other standard US design. |
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trumpetplanet
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012
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Location: Bristol, UK
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| PieterS wrote: |
Very interesting indeed: "Large mouthpieces are really good at hiding poor technique".
Stupid generalisation. How does that sound, a player with poor technique on a large mouthpiece? Like a better player? No mouthpiece will give you anything you don't have, certainly not technique. |
Thanks for your comment on this post. In the instance that you've highlighted here it is not so much of a "stupid generalisation" as an intentional generalisation. Technique is not the subject of this blog post and it would have become really off-topic had I explained further what the meaning behind that was. Many of my articles are written in a way that tend to provoke readers into looking at other articles so that they can find a the deeper meaning behind the generalisations.
The things that I was to referring to, specifically, are that a large, deep mouthpiece will allow a player to blow too much air, have sloppy articulation and allow their embouchure to collapse into the mouthpiece (thus not providing enough resistance at the chops and worsening the first mentioned issue).
So yeah, if you take an intermediate player who tends to over blow, doesn't take any care over their articulation and finds their lips pinned down by a relatively smaller mouthpiece, then a bigger one will do a great job of making them sound like those aren't problems.
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Last edited by trumpetplanet on Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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trumpetplanet
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: |
I think he's stating rather poorly what Jens Lindemann is talking about when he says that a smaller mpc is more efficient. It has smaller targets so the player really has to be precise to hit the center. With a larger mouthpiece, there is more room for the player to play off the center and still play well. I find it to be true from my own experience that a smaller mpc requires more precision and accuracy, though I still play larger sizes because smaller sizes are not comfortable. |
More crudely... yeah probably... but you understood what I meant 
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https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
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trumpetplanet
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| brassmusician wrote: | | Good point. I found some points I did not agree with in that article. Specifically I think that rim shape is quite possibly a more significant variable that just overall internal diameter. I also feel it is essential that the lips can execute freely and with the considerable variation in lip shape and thickness that different players have, which mouthpiece works can be very very different for each player. |
Thanks for your comments. Without taking the time to go back and read what I wrote I think that I was talking very generally about the concepts of "big vs small" or "open vs tight" and had I gone into more detail about modern mouthpiece design then rim shape certainly would have come into things.
I have found that the rim on a Bach 10-1/2C to 'restrict free movement' more than that of a 3C and so the larger piece feels easier to play, but there are plenty of much better mouthpieces around the size of a 10-1/2 than that same 3C.
Anyway... overall the intention of the article was to discuss people's attitudes towards mouthpieces rather than the pieces themselves.
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https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
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bike&ed
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Get a Wild Thing.  |
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