Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:41 pm Post subject: How does the upper register work?
So one thing I noticed when I was practicing the upper register I noticed something odd. I decided to play q high note with almost no abdominal pressure and a High C came out just fine, though I couldn't hold it out long because of no air.
Is that normal?
That led to to think something, How does high notes come out? And generally how do we sustain a high note.
I read about how there are 4 factors to a high note, air pressure, tongue arch, firm chops, and air support. But I often wonder, how will you know if you balance these factors just right?
After today. I want to know what you guys think about the upper register and I hope you guys can help me with my personal question. I was able to play a C above the staff. (My range tops out at a high Eb) without much abdominal pressure, is that a sign that I'm creating to much chop pressure?
I also want to know how abdominal pressure fully works, I believe I am not properly compressing my air, but i what like to what what i can do to properly do so.
This probably is a little wordy, but thank you to everyone who responds.
There is one factor that directly determines pitch. That is the aperture state.
Air pressure then controls the volume of tone.
Air pressure and air-support are basically the same thing. If by "air support" you are referring to blowing effort, be aware that the blowing effort must increase to sustain the pressure as your lungs empty of air.
The efficiency of the player also influences volume of tone but only to a point. You can not play with less than the minimum air pressure and air flow for a certain volume of tone.
Tongue arch is related to the embouchure effort or the "roll-out" action. It does not "compress" air or increase air power.
You have more than enough air pressure available to play any pitch. With improved efficiency you can get more sound for your efforts.
What you may be short of is embouchure/aperture functional development.
Also, for efficiency, be sure that the resistance you are blowing against is the tone in the instrument. Not an overly tight aperture or excessive arch. Those resistances reduce the air power that becomes tone.
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I believe I am not properly compressing my air
The most improper thing to do is tense the inhale and exhale actions against each other. As in trying to "tighten your stomach" as if to take a punch to the abdomen. This is a waste of effort and reduces air pressure generated.
Last edited by kalijah on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
GOD made us tighten the throat when we clench the abdomen so we could cough and expel stuff at maximum velocity, much greater velocity than can be put thru a trumpet. Getting past the push and abdominal clench lets your airway stay free. (VALSALVA) Keeping the throat free and tension from the face/aperture lets you form the correct shape for the with the centers (inside the mp) vibrating freely. I understand all these things conceptually (despite arguments to the contrary) but I wasn’t able to actually progress till I found that shape (aperture) leads for me. When I try to get shape correct a lot of things fall in place for me and the need for support lessens for a given note. Now I just have to get better at getting my lower lip up and out? Any suggestions?
Nothing, the pitch I want to sing. Billy I’m not an Adams guy but I know where you are heading with your question but this method (actually a way of thinking) is working for me. Maybe concentrating on something else keeps me from tightening the abdomen/throat which lets my face go where it needs so all factors align and sound a good note. - I don’t know? But I’m getting where I want to by thinking this way.
There is agreement I think that any unnecessary tension will hinder sound production in all registers. How you get there is open to interpretation, and most frankly don’t get there (maybe me among them?).
And one other factor is that we were born with vocal chords - the mind and the vocal chords were 2 of the organs you used first when born, and almost continuously since. I’m not sure that comparing playing a trumpet with singing will ever be all that similar until we are born with one as part of our hand???😳 not trying to be a smarta@@ but this question seems to be overly Zen.
Rod
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:27 am Post subject:
Rod Haney wrote:
Nothing, the pitch I want to sing. Billy I’m not an Adams guy but I know where you are heading with your question but this method (actually a way of thinking) is working for me. Maybe concentrating on something else keeps me from tightening the abdomen/throat which lets my face go where it needs so all factors align and sound a good note. - I don’t know? But I’m getting where I want to by thinking this way.
There is agreement I think that any unnecessary tension will hinder sound production in all registers. How you get there is open to interpretation, and most frankly don’t get there (maybe me among them?).
And one other factor is that we were born with vocal chords - the mind and the vocal chords were 2 of the organs you used first when born, and almost continuously since. I’m not sure that comparing playing a trumpet with singing will ever be all that similar until we are born with one as part of our hand???😳 not trying to be a smarta@@ but this question seems to be overly Zen.
Rod
We were also born with lungs and lips. _________________ Bill Bergren
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: Re: How does the upper register work?
Auraix wrote:
So one thing I noticed when I was practicing the upper register I noticed something odd. I decided to play q high note with almost no abdominal pressure and a High C came out just fine, though I couldn't hold it out long because of no air.
I doubt your perception of "abdominal pressure" is accurate. You have to use muscular action to expel the air. If the high C is coming out, you're engaging the muscles needed to generate enough air.
There's some other dysfunction going on. I can tighten my abdomen as if preparing to take a punch or do a situp very tight and still play through my entire range.
My assumption is you're over-tightening your throat and you're mistakenly thinking the issue is your abdomen. And/or you might be doing something wrong (wrong = not getting desired results) with the lips.
Notes come out when the tissue that actually buzzes has the right tension across it, aren't jammed against each other too tight or spaced too far, and there's the right air speed and volume to support it. If any of these don't happen then the given note doesn't happen. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: Aperture question
>> Notes come out when the tissue that actually buzzes has the right tension
>> across it, aren't jammed against each other too tight or spaced too far,
>> and there's the right air speed and volume to support it. If any of these
>> don't happen then the given note doesn't happen.
Nicely summarized. So here's my question: I've got plenty of air and air pressure; am not a pressure player; seem to have sufficient air "speed" (although obviously speed of air is a direct result of air pressure); play relaxed; and don't have an overly-tight embouchure (in the center)...
...but can't make that aperture small enough to play as high as I'd like.
I practice softly on lots of ascending scales, Schlossberg-type exercises, sequential higher playing, rest as much as I play and don't practice to the point of feeling. Higher notes are coming along slowly, but of course I want it as soon as I can get it The equipment is not an issue: Jupiter C and Getzen Proteus Bb with a Schilke 11D4 (equivalent to a Bach 7C but deeper).
Any suggestions on what I should add to my daily practice to strengthen the center in order to make that aperture smaller? _________________ Bach 239 C
Kanstul 700
Getzen Proteus 907S Bb
Bach Strad 37 Bb (70s)
ACB Doubler flugel
Getzen Capri cornet
I agree with some of what you have said, but if the abdominals are engaged with too much vigor (say when someone tells you to tighten your stomach like someone is going to punch you) a tightening of the throat occurs. Some have learned how to apply #support without this clench or reduce it to a minimum, but it is an issue that is a hinderance for a good percentage of trumpet players both accomplished and average. I will always believe there is one aperture for each note and that getting that down lessens need for support/push - and getting it loud does need that support. Hi notes require very little air or support to sound but applying more than minimum volume does. Take a lesson from Jim Manley and listen to him peep triples with almost no air and effort to see this is true. While I believe you MAY be able to clench and play your entire range, I’d bet a well trained ear could tell when you did it with almost 100% accuracy. The tension will show up in the sound. None of us will ever play without effort, but it should be our intention to try.
That’s just how I see the thing * it’s not a science we completely understand yet and I’m not trying for an argument.
Rod
I agree with some of what you have said, but if the abdominals are engaged with too much vigor (say when someone tells you to tighten your stomach like someone is going to punch you) a tightening of the throat occurs.
I assume you're replying to me.
It may be that a person tends to tighten their throat when they tighten their gut, it's possible to tighten your gut without tightening your throat, so I suggest the OP focus on that.
I personally don't think about tightening my stomach/abs to blow harder, or think about my gut/abdomen at all - I just think of going "huuuhhh" with more or less gusto, feeling it in the chest/solar plexus/throat area.
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I will always believe there is one aperture for each note
Watch your aperture very closely in a mirror with a mouthpiece visualizer and see what happens when you play a given pitch with extremes in loud/soft. You'll see the aperture change.
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The tension will show up in the sound.
I'm confident you would not be able to tell.
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Take a lesson from Jim Manley and listen to him peep triples with almost no air and effort
"Almost no effort" is an amorphous, meaningless term.
No one will use much air in the extreme high range, but I guarantee he's expending as much effort as is necessary to generate the pressure and speed required. It may be he's learned to generate the pressure within his mouth cavity but the pressure is coming from somewhere.
Ah, lookee here - I found video of Jim playing triple C - while he isn't turning 8 shades of purple it doesn't look like almost no effort to me. Maybe only two shades of purple.
Further his lip tissue is clearly cooperative. I'm convinced lip tissue configuration/shape is a factor. There's a reason why Maynard had success playing on the particular part of his lip that he did.
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:37 pm Post subject:
Regarding a private teacher, it's wonderful to have one nearby so you can have in-person lessons, but if that's not practical, Skype or Facetime lessons are much better than no lessons. There are multiple teachers who post here who provide lessons by Skype or Facetime.
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Aperture question
Proteus wrote:
>> Notes come out when the tissue that actually buzzes has the right tension
>> across it, aren't jammed against each other too tight or spaced too far,
>> and there's the right air speed and volume to support it. If any of these
>> don't happen then the given note doesn't happen.
Nicely summarized. So here's my question: I've got plenty of air and air pressure; am not a pressure player; seem to have sufficient air "speed" (although obviously speed of air is a direct result of air pressure); play relaxed; and don't have an overly-tight embouchure (in the center)...
...but can't make that aperture small enough to play as high as I'd like.
Any suggestions on what I should add to my daily practice to strengthen the center in order to make that aperture smaller?
Imo focusing on the aperture at all is misguided - it's the wrong thing to think about.
I also question the validity of the notion of "strengthening the center". You're focusing muscles all around the mouthpiece so that subtle changes get indirectly transmitted to the tissue that's actually in the cup and buzzing which needs to be comparatively relaxed. Deliberately tensing the tissue "in the center" is going to cut off the buzz altogether, I don't believe that's a useful way of thinking of it. When I get tired, I don't feel the fatigue in the center, I feel the "burn" in areas around and back from the mouthpiece.
Instead of fixating on the aperture I think you should be aware of the sensations involved and what your face does to create the right kind of useful tension in the involved muscles.
One thing I find useful is to play a note and while looking in the mirror snatch away the horn without changing anything and see what's going on with the various muscles to achieve that.
Increasing your range might need more than just doing exercises, you might also need to deliberately adjust elements of what you're doing. Maybe you need some adjustment in the horn angle, maybe change how the top and/or bottom lip is being engaged, how your tongue is being used, maybe you need to open your teeth slightly more. Maybe an adjustment in how you put the mp on your lips will make a difference, or how you think about moving air. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
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The equipment is not an issue: Jupiter C and Getzen Proteus Bb with a Schilke 11D4 (equivalent to a Bach 7C but deeper).
