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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 35
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:20 pm Post subject: Bach Knock-Offs? |
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It's been a long time since I bought a mouthpiece and the prices I'm seeing on name-brand pieces are staggering. I already have in my collection two Bach knock-offs. The one I play regularly has no brand stamp, just "5C". The external configuration is exactly like a Bach piece. I also have an Accent 3C.
So, is there any real difference between brand-name Bach pieces and knock-offs? _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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In my opinion there are reproductions and there are knock-offs.
Reproductions are usually good mouthpieces which bear resemblance to Bach's - things like Gewa, A&S, or pieces marked Conn, Blessing, Benge (etc).
Then there are the real cheapy knock-offs - a piece the maker didn't even care to brand is very rarely a good sign (though by no means are the nasties exclusively unbranded, far from it), and often the plating is either poor or contains large amounts of nickel.
Personally, I'd happily play the decent reproductions, but the real cheap and nasty stuff isn't going near my chops. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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The German maker Josef Klier aka JK makes Bach copies that are better than the Bachs being made know IMHO.
Last edited by Irving on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2331 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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spend your money on the name brands!
Just because the stamp on the side reads "5C" has no relation to Bach or anyone else.
Where we measure mouthpiece in hundredths of an inch and notice the difference, and craftsman have spent years tweaking, spend the $56 on a stock Bach, or $39 on a Yamaha, $62 on a Curry, etc.
Most, if not all, of the no-names that I've run across are straight up crap. Poorly made, plated, weird cup designs.. etc.. all in all, not worth bothering with for any price. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | spend your money on the name brands!
Just because the stamp on the side reads "5C" has no relation to Bach or anyone else.
Where we measure mouthpiece in hundredths of an inch and notice the difference, and craftsman have spent years tweaking, spend the $56 on a stock Bach, or $39 on a Yamaha, $62 on a Curry, etc.
Most, if not all, of the no-names that I've run across are straight up crap. Poorly made, plated, weird cup designs.. etc.. all in all, not worth bothering with for any price. |
Make that Thousandths of an inch. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Bach Knock-Offs? |
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BarryWilson wrote: | So, is there any real difference between brand-name Bach pieces and knock-offs? |
Absolutely. Most no-name mouthpieces aren't good reproductions and often have nothing in common with same numbered Bach pieces. If one of the knockoffs work for you then who's to argue. But I'd be surprised if the name brand pieces didn't consistently play better. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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epoustoufle Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015 Posts: 233 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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A secondary risk with a "knock off" is that you can get really good on it and then find you want to use it on cornet shank or flugel or... you lose it.
Now you can't find "5c" anywhere in the world that matches what you bought! Truth is you can get used to almost anything but once you get used to it, you need that fit pretty badly. |
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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 35
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:09 am Post subject: |
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You guys are the best. Thank you all for your input. I failed to mention that when I used the word "staggering" on prices I was referring to the more expensive brands. For example, a one-piece Warburton is $275.00, a Bob Reeves piece is $185.00, and Wedge pieces can be $210.00. But the information you guys provided was excellent and I appreciate all of you taking time to write.
If any of you have experience with Warburtons, Bob Reeves, or Wedge and have time to indulge me, when all is said and done, are these high end pieces worth the difference? Yes, I know there's a lot of personal preference at work and I also understand you have to ask the question, "what do you want different in a piece?" But, in general, are they worth it? _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:25 am Post subject: |
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BarryWilson wrote: | You guys are the best. Thank you all for your input. I failed to mention that when I used the word "staggering" on prices I was referring to the more expensive brands. For example, a one-piece Warburton is $275.00, a Bob Reeves piece is $185.00, and Wedge pieces can be $210.00. But the information you guys provided was excellent and I appreciate all of you taking time to write.
If any of you have experience with Warburtons, Bob Reeves, or Wedge and have time to indulge me, when all is said and done, are these high end pieces worth the difference? Yes, I know there's a lot of personal preference at work and I also understand you have to ask the question, "what do you want different in a piece?" But, in general, are they worth it? |
Throw in GR and monette prices too...
Are they worth it? Yes and No...
Like many things, you're paying for the diminishing returns at the sharp end of the market - in order for these to be meaningful, you've got to be able to notice them and know what you need/want... In other words, for really serious players they might be (if they can't find what they want elsewhere). |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:23 am Post subject: |
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BarryWilson wrote: | You guys are the best. Thank you all for your input. I failed to mention that when I used the word "staggering" on prices I was referring to the more expensive brands. For example, a one-piece Warburton is $275.00, a Bob Reeves piece is $185.00, and Wedge pieces can be $210.00. But the information you guys provided was excellent and I appreciate all of you taking time to write.
If any of you have experience with Warburtons, Bob Reeves, or Wedge and have time to indulge me, when all is said and done, are these high end pieces worth the difference? Yes, I know there's a lot of personal preference at work and I also understand you have to ask the question, "what do you want different in a piece?" But, in general, are they worth it? |
I've been playing Reeves mouthpieces for over 40 years. At the beginning they weren't dramatically more expensive than many other brands. That's not the case today, Reeves is one of the most expensive brands out there. Fortunately, mouthpieces last forever if you take care of them and since my Reeves Dynamic Mass 43D works well for me I'm not looking for anything to replace it.
That being said, are there a lot of different mouthpieces from different manufacturers that could work as well for me? Probably. So, if I was starting from scratch today would I focus on Reeves mouthpieces? Probably not. In a world in which many mouthpieces can work well for you I think that Reeves mouthpieces are too expensive, especially if you are prone to mouthpiece safaris. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2331 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Well, you hooked us with a post that really has nothing to do with your "topic" nor what you were really asking....
Does Tiger Woods notice the difference in his clubs -ones that are tweaked to his swing vs. a quality stock set? Do they make a difference to him?
Any of these top named, top notch mouthpiece designers have exeptional products. What you're paying for is their expertise, quality control, and personal assistance. If you are playing and buying from, for example, Warburton you are not (or shouldn't be) doing so randomly, but with their assistance, getting exactly what works for you and helps you get the results you desire.
If you're still working on basic playing and you have not prgressed to a point that you can tell the difference, you're going to be wasting your money.
Buy a Curry 3C., a Yamaha 14B4, or a Bach 3C, put all the others in a shoe box and go shed for a few years. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:32 am Post subject: |
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I have a different take on many of the posts above which knock off- (or unknown) brands. If your no-name mouthpiece is working well for you, then it's as good as anything else. I see no reason to switch. (Or did I read this wrong?) _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Over the course of a player’s musical life of, say, 60 years, do 200-300 bucks really matter? If you like the piece, if it works for you, buy it, play it, and don’t worry too much about it. 300 bucks divided by 50 or 60 years is affordable. If it’s cheaper, all the better.
I even use a “free” mouthpiece - the Klier USA I still use today came with my first horn, a Blessing Scholastic my parents bought me in 1980 ... _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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O00Joe Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 364 Location: Houston & Austin, Texas
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Stork, Curry, Bach, Denis Wick, and Schilke make top level mouthpieces at a reasonable price, all sub-$100. A step passed that there's Pickett, Hammond, Frost, Austin Custom Brass, and more at the sub-$150 level. Of course if you find what you're looking for used you might as well get that as long as there's no damage.
Expensive isn't always better. Monettes are built in a specific way that isn't for everyone, GRs sound unlike any other brand which again isn't for everyone. I used a GR 65VC in C trumpet for a while and tried a 65M but it's a trade of easy playing for a dull, throaty sound. (I want to try the L and MX but they're too cost prohibitive to possibly run into the same issue. I was fitted for the VC and LX way back when.)
I have one no name in my collection. It has the Josef Klier Exclusive blank and marked "5C" only. That blank is relatively rare in my experience but it's otherwise garbage. _________________ 1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68 |
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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 35
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you so much, gentlemen. Having this forum is particularly helpful for those of us living in rural areas of South Carolina/USA. Would you believe the nearest professional music store is an hour drive away (Greenville, SC) and the only pieces they sell are Bach and Yamaha? The next closest city is Charlotte, NC (2.5 hrs) where I hear there is only a slightly better selection. Gathering info from experienced players like you has helped me narrow my safari so I can or two or three online and try them for two weeks before returning what doesn't work for me. I'm going to try the Curry 3C and a Parduba 6 or 6.5. _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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If it's any help, some brands are remarkably consistent and also come with liberal return policies.
Specifically, I played a Schilke 11, which is basically the same dimensions as a Bach 7C but for some (me) more comfortable. Yamahas are patterened after the Schilkes. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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