Please. Get real. Criticizing that performance in any respect is absolutely stupefying. He's a monster and this performance was with a mediocre band, making his performance all the more awesome.
In some ways I think you have it backwards. To be throwing out accolades like awesome, and monster because a band wasn't top tier, is not in line with being 'real'. It also isn't good for Adam. Let's be honest in regard to a performance, without all of us worrying, because a preceived slight or criticism threatens someone's false pride.
HERMOKIWI wrote:
I've never seen a trumpet method or a psychological study that says that blowing out the water keys 2x's within three to four bars is overkill or a sign of edge or nerves. I have, however, known it to be a sign that the player didn't think the horn emptied completely the first time. Why not assume that to be the case here...
Perhaps, but unlikely.. Fwiw, what makes you think water didn't vacate properly 3 -4 bars prior ? Go back and watch how 'busy' and preoccupied he is throughout the piece, including the one handed violin impersonation. Have you seen such a thing before while someone is playing over high C on a chart like Maria ? It stems from doing that in practice, as a habit that he formed. Or there were several double expressos served that day.
HERMOKIWI wrote:
It just seems crazy to me to nit pick a player and performance like this. I wish I could even come close. Why the negativity? Why don't we all just sit back and love, appreciate and, for those so inclined, envy it?
It's less about negativity, and more about not worrying yourself sick about a known player when and if 'exalted' status is not extended. Imo, you place him in rarefied air, which I agree to an extent, but not to the degree you've taken it. Very very good is not the same as great. That rendition of Maria is problematic, plain and simple. Let's ask ourselves : Shouldn't phrases be executed in way that are solid, smooth, rather than nervous and excitable, with rips, glisses, and shakes at almost every moment ?
Well no, just no. You have to read the post. You can't just pretend the post says something it doesn't say.
Where did you get the idea that I said that the performance was awesome and that Adam is a monster "because a band wasn't top tier."? I never said that. What I said was that the performance was awesome and Adam is a monster in spite of the mediocrity of the band and not because of the mediocrity of the the band. Big difference.
I didn't say that I thought the water didn't vacate properly 3 to 4 bars prior. I said that what Adam did is more likely a sign that HE thought the water didn't vacate properly than it is a sign of "overkill or a sign of edge or nerves." Normally a player operates the water key because, right or wrong, the player thinks that water needs to be vacated, not because the player is exercising overkill or displaying edginess or a case of nerves. Maybe Adam did it for the exact reasons you state but experience tells me that it's more likely he did it because he thought he needed to do it to vacate water.
Have I seen the one handed thing on a note over high C on a chart like Maria? Absolutely. Maynard did it often. It's called "showmanship." Clark Terry sometimes played his flugelhorn with his left hand and sometimes he played it upside down. Allen Vizzutti does the upside down thing, too. There's nothing wrong with it. They're just having fun.
The fact that Adam didn't execute the phrases in a manner of which you approve doesn't matter. Music is an interpretive art, especially music like this arrangement of Maria. You know, if you look closely at a Rembrandt painting you'll see brushstrokes and if you look closely at a Michelangelo sculpture you'll see chisel marks. These are not "defects." They are personal signatures of the artist reflecting the humanity of art. In fact, there's an expression that "The value of art is in the imperfections." It's absolutely true.
Who appointed you to determine that something "...isn't good for Adam"? I'm not defending Adam. He doesn't need defending. His ability, talent and performance speak for themselves. They are what they are. And the idea that I perceive your criticism of Adam to threaten my sense of pride is another conclusion that belongs on the "stupifying" list. Jumping to conclusions based on assumptions stands to ultimately make a person look pretty silly. _________________ HERMOKIWI
That Maria is beautiful, but he emptied his water key too much for my tastes. A true virtuoso like Maynard or Maurice would have just gurgled his way through. Maybe if Adam was more confident the laws of physics governing condensation would have been suspended.
Some of my horns seem to hide water no matter how much I empty them, especially if the room temperature is low. I must be nervous or on edge practicing long tones in my office.
It's much more satisfying and you learn much more if you look for things to admire about fabulous musicians rather than invent reasons to dislike their performances.
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:47 am Post subject:
JoseLindE4 wrote:
That Maria is beautiful, but he emptied his water key too much for my tastes. A true virtuoso like Maynard or Maurice would have just gurgled his way through. Maybe if Adam was more confident the laws of physics governing condensation would have been suspended.
Some of my horns seem to hide water no matter how much I empty them, especially if the room temperature is low. I must be nervous or on edge practicing long tones in my office.
It's much more satisfying and you learn much more if you look for things to admire about fabulous musicians rather than invent reasons to dislike their performances.
_________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs
Let me preface this with I love Adam Rapas playing and his overall musicality.
I hear through the grapevines that's hes sort of a jerk unfortunately. I've heard from people that have seen him in master classes and that have performances with him. It's kind of a shame that someone so talented does not have the best personality. Then again, he does have the skill to back up any egotism he may have.
I've sat in a master class and then was able to have lunch with Adam while I was in college. I don't think "jerk" is the right term, really. I personally didn't get that vibe from him at all. I think he just has a unique and unusual personality, and sometimes people don't know how to approach that. The default reaction for a lot of people is "he's a jerk" when really it's simply that they didn't know how to go about handling that type of personality.
It's the same with Jon Faddis. He's not a mean person at all, he just has an unbelievably dry sense of humor. Once you know that, and approach him as such, he's an absolute joy to hang out with. I had dinner with Jon after a concert one night. He was sarcastic and dry, but because I knew what to expect I just threw that sarcasm right back at him. He LOVED it! Ended up exchanging contact info and still talk with him occasionally. You just gotta know how to handle different personalities sometimes.
The fact that Adam didn't execute the phrases in a manner of which you approve doesn't matter. Music is an interpretive art, especially music like this arrangement of Maria. You know, if you look closely at a Rembrandt painting you'll see brushstrokes and if you look closely at a Michelangelo sculpture you'll see chisel marks. These are not "defects." They are personal signatures of the artist reflecting the humanity of art. In fact, there's an expression that "The value of art is in the imperfections." It's absolutely true.
You're making my point easier to decipher when you correctly bring Michelangelo into this. Not only a brilliant craftsman, but someone who conveyed a supreme maturity.. Clowning of any kind was not entertained by him and there is nothing inconsistent or erratic in the sculpture. The Delphic Sybyl...despite individual brush strokes, flows in the same manner. From that standpoint, it is reasonable that most here would welcome hearing Maria played in a solid and confident manner, with fewer rips and shakes. I think all of us would like to hear that.
The fact that Adam didn't execute the phrases in a manner of which you approve doesn't matter. Music is an interpretive art, especially music like this arrangement of Maria. You know, if you look closely at a Rembrandt painting you'll see brushstrokes and if you look closely at a Michelangelo sculpture you'll see chisel marks. These are not "defects." They are personal signatures of the artist reflecting the humanity of art. In fact, there's an expression that "The value of art is in the imperfections." It's absolutely true.
You're making my point easier to decipher when you correctly bring Michelangelo into this. Not only a brilliant craftsman, but someone who conveyed a supreme maturity.. Clowning of any kind was not entertained by him and there is nothing inconsistent or erratic in the sculpture. The Delphic Sybyl...despite individual brush strokes, flows in the same manner. From that standpoint, it is reasonable that most here would welcome hearing Maria played in a solid and confident manner, with fewer rips and shakes. I think all of us would like to hear that.
You knew Michelangelo? You can verify with absolute certainty that he never engaged in "clowning" (an interesting way for you to describe "showmanship"). You must either be really old, clairvoyant or both.
Some people would surely like to hear "....Maria played in a solid and confident manner, with fewer rips and shakes." I submit, however, that Adam played it in a solid and confident manner and that his styling was within the bounds of reasonable artistic license and was an appropriate expression of his personal creativity.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Please post a video of a performance of this version of Maria that meets with your approval in all respects so we can get a good look at what you think is a perfect performance or, at least, a performance superior to Adam's.
Many here on TH will probably be eager to see it and learn from it. I know I will. Thanks in advance. _________________ HERMOKIWI
..I submit, however, that Adam played it in a solid and confident manner and that his styling was within the bounds of reasonable artistic license and was an appropriate expression of his personal creativity.
I question how firmly you hold to that premise, but it's not for me to say. Let me suggest that beating the subject of Maria to death will not sway anyone's mind to this point.. The nice thing is that you've kept an open mind thus far, as to what constitutes solid confident playing, and what does not. So for our purposes here, let us take two proficient and yet similar players. Just in a general way.
Adam had a small private room at ITG 2019 in Miami. I had never experienced a setup (at ITG) like this before. It felt like walking into someone's living room - soft lights, vaporizer, a few chairs - very calming. You'd walk in and sign up, then when your turn came he would work with you one-to-one for as long as you wanted - it went far beyond "blow a few notes" - Adam was literally running a masterclass all day long - it was fascinating to just sit and listen to what he was doing with each person. I experienced him as a kind, giving person who was ready to help and encourage anybody who was interested. He was the same when out of the room - engaging with anyone who wanted to talk - he is passionate about his work and equally passionate about helping others! _________________ Dave Wondra
..I submit, however, that Adam played it in a solid and confident manner and that his styling was within the bounds of reasonable artistic license and was an appropriate expression of his personal creativity.
I question how firmly you hold to that premise, but it's not for me to say. Let me suggest that beating the subject of Maria to death will not sway anyone's mind to this point.. The nice thing is that you've kept an open mind thus far, as to what constitutes solid confident playing, and what does not. So for our purposes here, let us take two proficient and yet similar players. Just in a general way.
I'm a big fan of Chase and have been since the inception of the group. Bill Chase was another monster player but a different type of player than Adam in that he focused in the high register as a lead player and then, later, as a jazz/rock player in Chase while, in contrast, Adam crosses over into a lot of other types of music (although he can play jazz/rock similar to Chase as well).
I view Bill's performance on the recording as solid and confident. I view Adam's performance as solid and confident as well. Both performances are embellished by the performer's personal style and interpretation. They are different performances (one engineered into an LP recording (who knows how many takes, overdubbing, enhancement, etc.) and the other one a "here you go" video) but both are enough to substantiate a conclusion that both players are massive talents.
I completely agree with poster JoseLindE4:
"It's much more satisfying and you learn much more if you look for things to admire about fabulous musicians rather than invent reasons to dislike their performances." _________________ HERMOKIWI
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:12 am Post subject:
I still want to hear in example of how Maria should be played...I've already burned all my records of players who don't take stuff seriously, and use their spit valve too much. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs
Adam had a small private room at ITG 2019 in Miami. I had never experienced a setup (at ITG) like this before. It felt like walking into someone's living room - soft lights, vaporizer, a few chairs - very calming. You'd walk in and sign up, then when your turn came he would work with you one-to-one for as long as you wanted - it went far beyond "blow a few notes" - Adam was literally running a masterclass all day long - it was fascinating to just sit and listen to what he was doing with each person. I experienced him as a kind, giving person who was ready to help and encourage anybody who was interested. He was the same when out of the room - engaging with anyone who wanted to talk - he is passionate about his work and equally passionate about helping others!
Everyone here agrees that Adam is a world-class virtuoso, respected and admired worldwide. It's an unequivocal fact. The singular opposing view looks to be a practical joke or something.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:39 am Post subject:
theslawdawg wrote:
I still want to hear in example of how Maria should be played...I've already burned all my records of players who don't take stuff seriously, and use their spit valve too much.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:49 am Post subject:
rothman wrote:
If we're talking about a generational talent, one concern would be why 'Maria', though clearly an advanced chart, would appear to strain him in several places. If you push or pull the phrasing all over a standard like that, it can start to resemble a train wreck. He held it together for the most part yet it became somewhat of a nail biter to the end. Attention paid in blowing out the water keys 2x's within three to four bars is overkill. That's a sign of edge, or nerves.
Okay, I just listened and watched the Adam Rapa "Maria" video, and in my opinion, it is the best rendition of that arrangement of that song I've ever heard in my life, including the recorded and also live performances of it by Maynard I was blessed to be at (and that's not to say Maynard didn't kick butt on that arrangement - he certainly did, and did so sometimes seven nights a week).
Now as to spit valves and nerves, let us assume for a moment it was indeed an act of nervous energy release when Adam blew the spit out several times within a few measures (meaning we're assuming he wasn't just chasing some obstinate spit out of his horn that he could hear bubbling around that didn't quite make it to the mic and onto the recording). If it was a sign of nervous energy, SO WHAT?!?! Hey, Adam was also shifting back and forth, side to side on his feet during parts of the performance and that was possibly a release of some nervous energy as well. Should we take his trumpet away? Send him to his room for a time-out with no toys?
In my view, musicians and other performers should not judged by their nervousness, fear or stage-fright. They should be judged by their performance. And if they happened to be a bit nervous and still rose to the occasion, well that's even more impressive to me.
Now I'd like to hear some harrumphs from the peanut gallery.
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Let's all once again realize that there is only one, singular, dissenting view which presents a ridiculous assertion that no one else agrees with.
Again, I think it's meant as a practical joke...next, he will tell us that Maynard used to move around too much on stage, which makes him a paranoid schizophrenic, and a nervous, sub-par player
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:16 pm Post subject:
myvalves wrote:
Let's all once again realize that there is only one, singular, dissenting view which presents a ridiculous assertion that no one else agrees with.
Again, I think it's meant as a practical joke...next, he will tell us that Maynard used to move around too much on stage, which makes him a paranoid schizophrenic, and a nervous, sub-par player
Worst trumper player ever. Too enthusiastic. Never serious. Dances too much. Plays double high C's with one hand. And the spit.....don't get me started.
...even Lawrence Welk and his folks had fun. I'm over it. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs
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